WAYS AND MEANS,—COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 15 March 1888)

§ MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)
I must object. I feel that we have been very badly treated by the Government this evening.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)
I hope the hon. Member will not press his objection.

§ MR. DILLON
I think the right hon. Gentleman might have extended to us some of that courtesy he is ready to demand.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
I hope I am not wanting in courtesy. As I have frequently pointed out for days past, it is a matter of the highest importance that we should get these Votes to-night.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)
It was 25 minutes to 12, and you would not wait.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
The hon. and learned Gentleman is aware that the clock had just struck 12 when we got through the Vote, and he knows also that the Vote is not complete without the Vote in Committee of Ways and Moans. It will be a cause of great inconvenience if that Vote is not now taken. Of course, it is in the power of hon. Gentlemen to prevent this; but I repeat again it will result in much inconvenience to the Public Service if the Vote is not now taken.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Derby)
Under the circumstances, I hope hon. Members will allow the Vote to be taken, though I confess I do think that the right hon. Gentleman might have postponed his Motion for closing the debate for a quarter of an hour. The right hon. Gentleman says the Division was only completed in time to take the last Vote at 12 o'clock; but he must remember that the Division on his own Motion occupied some 20 minutes, and if he had allowed the time to be given for discussion he might have relied upon getting his Vote. I believe he would have got his Vote if he had not made his Motion for Closure—[Ironical cheers and laughter]—Oh, well! if that is the tone and spirit in which right hon. Gentlemen are prepared to moot me, I will go no further in assisting the Government. I was going to appeal to the hon. Member to withdraw his objection; but, considering the spirit with which I am met, I will not attempt to do so.

§ MR. DILLON
The clock pointed to half-past 11, and there was not the slightest intention of preventing the Vote being taken. Every Member of the House must have seen there was no conceivable object in moving the closure at half-past 11, except to show the greatest possible discourtesy to a Member. No time was to be gained; the only object was to close the mouth of a 1403 Member of the House, without gaining any other object whatever. The right hon. Gentleman might have interposed to close the debate at 5 minutes to 12, but I repeat there was no intention of preventing a decision on the Vote. I had an important matter to refer to, and my doing so would have occupied some 10 or 15 minutes; no public object was served by moving the Closure, and I consider the right hon. Gentleman did distinctly offer to an humble Member of this House the greatest possible insult one Member could offer to another, That being so, I do not think that he can make any claim upon our courtesy.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
I ask for no courtesy. I desire always to act with the greatest possible courtesy; but I have certain duties to discharge—thoy may be disagreeable duties, but they have to be discharged, whether they are pleasant or unpleasant to hon. Members or to myself. I made the Motion at 25 minutes to 12, because I was conscious of the fact that two Divisions would take place unless the Closure was accepted, and then another Vote had to be taken, to which the hon. Member objected, and I could not be certain to what length the debate might be continued. Whether I was right or whether I was wrong, is not a question of importance, except so far as I am concerned. I have done what I thought necessary in the interests of the House and of Public Business; and if, under the circumstances, hon. Gentlemen think it right to object to this Vote now, I must submit, for the Rules of the House give them the power to do so.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY
As this may form a precedent, perhaps some understanding may be arrived at. The right hon. Gentleman thinks it is a very small matter whether he was right or wrong; but he is mistaken. The same course was taken the other night. If, when my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) rose, the right hon. Gentleman had got up and said—"It is necessary we should have this Vote; are you going to let us have it?" we should at once have told the right hon. Gentleman that we did not intend to obstruct the Vote. But you have allowed the Admirals to occupy two days with the former Vote, not so large a Vote as this, and we have but three hours and a-half or four hours' discussion of this Vote of 1404 £3,000,000 or £4,000,000. With a word or two from the right hon. Gentleman, an understanding could have been arrived at. As a matter of fact, the Excess Vote was called on at three minutes to 12, and had we the desire to obstruct, nothing would have been easier than to talk the time out; but we showed our bonâ fides, and allowed the Vote to be taken. The right hon. Gentleman, would set a useful precedent if, instead of moving the Closure in this peremptory way—and I say it in no offensive sense—instead of lecturing us, for he has no business to talk on the Motion—if he, on future ocsasions, instead of resorting to this short-shrift principle, made an appeal to Members on the exigencies of the position. Let him take the counsel given by my hon. Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) the other night, when the right hon. Gentleman closed, in a similar manner, a question in. reference to the use of stone in some buildings in Ireland; lot him try some measure of conciliation, and afterwards resort to the extreme Motion if necessary. I hope now, under all the circumstances, and after the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt), and being, for my own part, prepared to return good for evil, that the Vote may be allowed to be taken.

§ MR. SPEAKER
Does the hon. Gentleman withdraw his objection?

§ MR. BIGGAR
I object.