THIRD READING. (Hansard, 15 June 1888)

§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)
said, that before the Bill was read a third time he should like to have some explanation or assurance from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goschen) in reference to the question of annuities in the Bill. The market price of 3 per cent was taken as the basis for calculating annuities, and he thought the House ought to have some information in regard to the annuities under the Trustee Savings Banks Act. He held in his hand a Return from the National Debt Commissioners made on the 11th of May, 1888, and it would be found that the value of the assets, according to Acts of Parliament, differed, being fixed in one at £47,944,217, and by the other at £45,853,108, and showing a large deficiency. That deficiency would have to be met by the Commissioners of the National Debt, and he should like to have an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman as to what the effect of the present Bill would be upon the deficit.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Derby)
said, he had mentioned this Bill yesterday, but he wished the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to understand that if it was in any way inconvenient he would not press for the information he had then asked for. Probably the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give it before the end of the Session. He (Sir William Harcourt) wanted to know what measures had been taken in reference to the Debt which was still unconverted? There was, however, another matter upon which he would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question in regard to the Bill. Great changes had now been made in the position of the National Debt. The Treasury had been good enough, in reply to his Motion, to give a Paper containing some fuller information as to past transactions in reference to the Debt than had been 259 given before; but what appeared to him to be desirable and perfectly feasible was that the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt—as a Department of the State—should make an Annual Report of their transactions, just as the Post Office, the Inland Revenue, and the Customs did. It was a Department comprising many officers, and supported at considerable expense, and it was only experts and those who understood these most complicated matters who were able to give information upon them. The transactions were of an extremely complicated character, and there ought to be a Report presented year by year. He would go further, and he should like to have the history of what had been done with reference to the Debt since the great war in 1815. He believed there were ample materials for compiling such a history, and it was certainly information that ought to be in the hands of the public. He would, therefore, be glad if the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goschen) would hold out a prospect of making this an interesting feature in connection with the reform of the Debt in which the right hon. Gentleman's own career would take a distinguished part.

§ MR. W. BECKETT (Notts,) Bassetlaw
said, that before the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, he wished to put a question as to the reduction of interest in connection with the Post Office Savings Banks. The margin of profit made by the Post Office Savings Banks was now very small; and as the reduction of interest on Consols would convert that profit into a loss, he would like to know when it was intended to reduce the rate of interest payable by the Post Office Banks; and whether it should not be reduced at the same time as that of the Trustee Savings Banks?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCEHN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)
In answer to the question put to me by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Cork (Dr. Tanner), the point he has raised is one of considerable interest, but really it is not touched by the provisions of the present Bill. The annuities dealt with by the present Bill are annuities to be granted after the passing of the Act. If the hon. Member desires further in- 260 formation as to the deficiency in the Trustee Savings Banks fund, of course I shall have to prepare to give it. With reference to the question put to me by my hon. Friend the Member for the Bassetlaw Division of Notts (Mr. W. Beckett) as to the reduction to be made in the interest upon the deposits in Post Office Savings Banks, it is clear that the rate of interest will have to be reduced. The same kind of measure will have to be applied to the Post Office Savings Banks as I was compelled to suggest in the case of the Trustee Savings Banks. I cannot say the precise date or the precise form in which the change will be made, but it is a question which must claim the early attention of the Government. It is extremely difficult to deal with all these matters at the same moment, as all of them involve questions of great complexity, and must be approached with the greatest care, in order to prevent injustice. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt), I may say that I am at present engaged in considering the best means of dealing with the amount still outstanding from the conversion. Perhaps I may take this opportunity of stating that the amount of Consols which is still outstanding is £40,467,771, and the amount of Reduced is £6,009,968, making a total of £46,477,739. These are the latest figures I have been able to obtain, and the reduction is still going on, as the conversion is still open to those residing at considerable distances. With regard to the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, all I can say is that it is in contemplation to have that Report made annually by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. It is extremely desirable to place clear and precise information upon all these matters before the House, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that I will do what I can in the way of making further improvements in the statement of the National Debt, and in simplifying, as far as I can, what I admit are, in their present form, somewhat complicated figures. I will also consider to what extent the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman can be carried out by issuing an exhaustive Report of the history of the National Debt during a course of years. Of course, I have very able assistance in 261 producing such a Report, and I am quite sure that Sir Rivers Wilson, the Controller General, will give his best attention to the undertaking.

§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower Hamlets, Poplar)
said, he believed that such a Paper would be a most interesting document. He hoped that it would be issued in such a form that those who wished to compare the state of the National Debt now with what it was in other years would have no difficulty in doing so.

§ MR. GOSCHEN
I cannot accept the suggestion of the hon. Member, because it sometimes involves difficult matters when we undertake to make comparisons in a Return of this kind, and might throw the subject into some confusion. Therefore, I cannot bind myself as to the form in which the Return shall be made, or how far it will follow the form of the Return of the proceedings of the National Debt Commissioners. It is a difficult task to adjust the figures in such a way as both to have a comparative and statistical interest and not to avoid confusing the public mind to a certain extent. I will examine the point, and, if it is desirable, will see that the document is reprinted.

§ MR. CHILDERS (Edinburgh, S.)
said, he hoped that the Annual Return which was called by his name, and which he had moved for at the request of the Treasury for many years, would be continued, although, perhaps, another column might be added to it.

§ MR. BARTLEY (Islington, N.)
said, he hoped that the Government would take this opportunity of the reduction of the interest in the Post Office Savings Banks to devise some scheme by which indirect pressure would be brought to bear upon the holders of deposits to induce them to become larger holders of Consols, in order to get as large a number of persons as possible interested in the National Debt of the country.

§ MR. GOSCHEN
I entirely sympathize with the object of the hon. Member, and I think the House will sympathize with it also. It is extremely desirable that the depositors in Post Office Savings Banks should become large owners of Consols. I am glad to say that the number is increasing, and I will endeavour to formulate a plan by which it may continue to increase.

§ MR. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen, E.)
said, he was not sure that he was quite in Order; but he wished to ask, with regard to the interest to be allowed in the case of Savings Banks, whether it was the object of the Government to assimilate Post Office Savings Banks and the National Securities Savings Banks, so that the interest in both cases should be as far as possible the same?

§ MR. J. ROWLANDS (Finsbury, E.)
said, he wished to know whether, in dealing with the interest of the Trustee Savings Banks, any steps would be taken to prevent the wrongful use of the name of the Government?

§ MR. GOSCHEN
The hon. Member should be aware that there is a Committee about to be appointed to inquire into the management of Trustee Savings Banks, and one of the questions with which they will have to deal—in regard to which I shall put a Notice on the Paper this evening—is the description which is sometimes given of these banks, and which occasionally involves to some extent the deception of the public. In reply to the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Esslemont), I did not say that the amount of interest would be precisely the same in the Trustee Savings Banks as in the Post Office Savings Banks; but the relative rates will be maintained as they are now, there being a reduction of ¼ per cent in both cases.