HC Deb 14 June 1888 vol 327 cc112-4
MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been directed to the following extract from the report in The Freeman's Journal of the charge of Mr. Justice Johnson, on the 5th instant, to the Grand Jury of the County of Dublin:— The County Inspector had furnished him with a list of the criminal offences that had occurred since the last commission, and he reported that the county was in a perfectly satisfactory state; and, whether the Report of the County Inspector referred to correctly represents the state of Dublin County as regards crime; and, if so, what is the reason for applying to the County of Dublin the 1st section of "The Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887?"

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)

The general state of crime is not abnormal. But I would remind the hon. Member that the section cannot be put in force unless a crime has been committed; and, further, that the necessity for using the section does not depend on the amount of crime committed, but on the character and circumstances of the crime which has to be investigated. The Government desire to be in a position to put the section in force without delay if the necessity for it should arise.

MR. CLANCY

asked, if he was to understand that the reason why this section had been applied to the County of Dublin was that possibly something in the way of crime might arise in future requiring the aid of the section?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

The hon. Gentleman must not be too hasty in his inferences.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can now explain to the House why this provision of the Crimes Act has been applied to the City of Dublin, when, since it was applied to the City of Dublin four weeks ago, no steps have been taken under the section? Now, as I think its application to the City of Dublin is extremely unnecessary, I think we are entitled to some explanation.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

It was applied to the City of Dublin as included in the County; and my answer as regards the City of Dublin is precisely the same as the answer to the hon. Gentleman in relation to the County of Dublin.

MR. DILLON

I beg to point out that the right hon. Gentleman has given absolutely no answer to the Questions put to him. The right hon. Gentleman has given a purely hypothetical statement that possibly the Government might require the power of the section in case necessity might arise. I think we have a right to press the right hon. Gentleman for some statement of the reasons why the County and the City of Dublin are included under this section; because we are entitled to suppose that the Coercion Act would not be applied without some reason for it.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I do not know that I can give the hon. Gentleman the information he desires; but I may say that the County of Dublin is in an exceptional position in Ireland, as offences might be committed there which would blossom into crimes in other parts of the country.

MR. MURPHY (Dublin, St. Patrick's)

asked, whether the object of this section of the Crimes Act was not to discover crime; and whether Mr. Justice Johnson, on the same occasion, did not say that the amount of crime in the City of Dublin was very inconsiderable?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I have already told the hon. Gentleman that the necessity for using the powers of the section does not depend on the amount, but on the character and circumstances of the crime which has to be investigated.

MR. DILLON

But what is the crime? Will the right hon. Gentleman say that there is any crime in the City or County of Dublin of such a character as requires to be investigated under Section 1?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I am afraid I should not be able to satisfy the hon. Gentleman with any answer I might give. I have nothing to add to what I have said.

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBTIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

Will the right hon. Gentleman, by a plain answer, enable the House to understand, with regard to the County of Dublin, whether or not any information has been sworn that a crime has been committed; or whether, in fact, any crime has been committed which renders it desirable, in the opinion of the Government, to apply the provisions of Section 1 of the Coercion Act?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Of course, the hon. Gentleman is aware that if information had been sworn that a crime had been committed there would be an investigation under Section 1. I am afraid beyond that I have nothing to add.

MR. CLANCY

Are we to understand, then, that no crime has been committed in the County of Dublin?

[No reply.]