HC Deb 07 June 1888 vol 326 cc1396-400
MR. M'CARTAN (Down, S.)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to the meeting of farmers recently addressed by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) at Newtownards, If he can now state whether the hon. Member was closely followed by a detective in a car from Belfast to Newtownards and back; whether District Inspector Ward called on the hotel proprietress who owned the hall where the meeting was to have been held, and caused her to refuse the hall for the meeting; whether he is aware that Mr. M'Master, P.L.G., who engaged the hall, is the Honorary Secretary of the Newtownards Farmers' Association, which holds its meetings regularly in the same hall; whether several constables were placed at the door of the premises on which the meeting was held, and whether these constables endeavoured to intimidate the people by staring into the face of every man as he left the meeting; and, whether the hon. Member for East Mayo was followed by three policemen wherever he went, on that evening, through the town of Newtownards?

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)

The Inspector General of Constabulary informs me the reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The District Inspector did call on the proprietress of the hotel. He did not cause her to refuse the room. I understand Mr. M'Master holds the office stated. I am not aware whether he had actually engaged the room on the occasion in question. Several constables were not placed at the door, but two were close to it when the persons who attended the meeting were leaving. These police did not endeavour to intimidate the people in the manner alleged, or in any other manner. The police, in view of former occurrences, apprehending violence towards the hon. Member if his presence were generally known, considered it advisable to keep him in sight, in order to preserve the peace if necessary.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly inform me for what purpose the police were placed at the door when the people were coming out, because I can say that, from my own knowledge, they did intimidate them?

MR. J. E. ELLIS (Nottingham, Rushcliffe)

I wish to ask the Chief Secretary, how he reconciles the answer which he has just read from the police with the reply he gave me this day week to almost an identical Question, when he said that, on the authority of the police, he could state that there was no truth whatever in the statements made?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Will the hon. Gentleman read out this Question, as I do not carry it in my memory? With regard to the Question asked me by the hon. Member for East Mayo, I can only repeat what I have already said—that the police did not intimidate, nor can I see personally how staring in the face of a man leaving a meeting is a method of intimidation.

MR. DILLON

Will the right hon. Gentleman inform me for what purpose these police were placed at the door?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said, he concluded it was for no special reason. He presumed they wanted to know what was going on, or possibly that there might be a disturbance. If the hon. Gentleman desired it, he would make further inquiries into the matter.

MR. DILLON

I am certainly curious on that point. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to inquire for what purpose these constables were placed at the door of the meeting; and whether it is customary for constables to be put on the door when Loyalists hold meetings?

MR. J. E. ELLIS

said, he was perfectly prepared to read out his Question, as he had been invited to do by the Chief Secretary. His Question was— To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, immediately preceding the visit of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) to Newtownards at the end of April, the District Inspector and the Head Constable of Police visited the proprietress of the Ulster Hotel, and urged her not to let the hall upon her premises (in which the farmers of the district usually held their meetings) for any meeting at which the hon. Member was to be present; and, whether, on the meeting of the farmers of the district, addressed by the hon. Member, being held elsewhere, constables were posted at the entrance to the room, and what was the object of this proceeding? The reply of the right hon. Gentleman, on the authority of the police, was that there was no truth in the suggestion conveyed.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

As far as I can understand the Question, there was no truth in it. The Question was, whether the police had gone to the landlady to urge her not to let the room?

MR. DILLON

So they did.

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order!

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I have said, in answer to the Question of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. E. Ellis)—and I repeat it—that there is no truth in that allegation. In answer to the hon. Member for East Mayo, I again say that the police did not go to the landlady with the view to urging her not to take in the hon. Gentleman.

MR. DILLON

But the right hon. Gentleman has passed over the most important factor of the allegation. ["Order!"] It is at the invitation of the right hon, Gentleman himself that his answer was read out. He has passed over the most important part of my Question. I want to know how he disguises the fact that in reply to my hon. Friend last week——

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! It is impossible now at this stage to enter into a debate as to whether an answer given now is a different one to an answer given some time ago.

MR. DILLON

I am extremely unwilling to prolong this more than is necessary. ["Order!"] I am simply now claiming the right which every Member of this House has of making a personal explanation, when the truth of what he stated is assailed. I stated in public that these constables were standing at the door of the room, and did intimidate people; and I say that the Chief Secretary stated in his place in the House that there was not a word of truth in that statement. I wish to know, on a question of personal explanation, from the Chief Secretary, does he adhere to the statement he has made that there is no truth in my assertion?

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! That is not in the nature of a personal explanation. If the hon. Gentleman wishes further to elucidate the facts, it is quite competent for him to give Notice in the ordinary way.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

I desire to ask the Chief Secretary, arising out of this Question, is it not usual for the Constabulary in Ireland to attend all public meetings?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Yes, Sir; I should imagine it is a very usual thing. But if either my hon. Friend, or any other hon. Gentleman wishes further information on the point, I shall be very glad to give it.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

would ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he would be good enough to tell the House what took place at the visit between the proprietress of the hotel and the District Inspector and constable?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I know what did not take place; but I cannot be expected to give a full account of the conversation between these persons. The District Inspector positively denies that he urged this woman not to admit the hon. Member.

MR. M'CARTAN

asked the Chief Secretary, whether he was aware that The Newtownards Chronicle, on the Saturday after the meeting took place, stated that a District Inspector Ward, accompanied by Head Constable Smith and another constable, did call on the woman and urge her not to admit the hon. Member for East Mayo; and, whether any inquiry has been made of Constable Smith?

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is now giving his version of the story. If the hon. Gentleman is desirous of an answer, and puts a Question in the usual way, he will, no doubt, get it.