HC Deb 27 July 1888 vol 329 cc665-8
MR. J. E. ELLIS (Nottingham, Rushcliffe)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Who is responsible for the placing this week of a number of detectives within the precincts of the Houses of Parliament; and, whether it is correct, as announced in The Times of July 26, that the authorities of Scotland Yard have decided it is most expedient the arrest should be made "after dark?"

THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS) (Birmingham, E.)

I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that no extra detectives have been placed within the precincts of the Houses of Parliament during this week. No such decision has been arrived at as suggested in the second paragraph of the Question.

MR. J. E. ELLIS

asked, was the House to understand that no extra detectives had been employed, or that they had been withdrawn?

MR. MATTHEWS

said, that there had been detectives for a considerable period employed in the neighbourhood of the House of Commons. That had been part of the regular arrangement.

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBLIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman, as it appears from the law expounded to us by the Solicitor General for Ireland that no Irish Member of Parliament can be summoned to answer a complaint, even though he be in attendance here in discharging his Parliamentary duties, but that he must be arrested in the night and hurried over to Ireland next day in order to answer complaints under the Coercion Act—I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether he will facilitate the passing of a Bill which will relieve Irish Members of Parliament from the kind of special penalty which seems to attach to their attendance for their Parliamentary duties?

MR. MATTHEWS

I am not aware of any such facilities being in existence in England. Any facilities that at present exist are, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, confined to warrants. A warrant issued out of the jurisdiction of any magistrate may be executed in England and Ireland; but there is no such statutory power in the case of summons, and I see great difficulty in attempting to change the present practice. No summons issued in England can be served in Ireland, and vice versâ.

MR. SEXTON

Would the right hon. Gentleman have any objection to consider such an amendment of the law as would enable a summons to be served upon an Irish Member engaged in his duty here?

MR. MATTHEWS

It is not applicable to Irish Members alone, but is equally applicable to English Members.

MR. R. T. REID&c.) (Dumfries,

I would ask if the Home Secretary would kindly say whether there is any difficulty in law, or any objection to a summons being issued in Ireland and sent over in the ordinary way, either handed or sent in a letter, instead of handing over the person to the custody of the police—is there any objection in law to that course?

MR. MATTHEWS

said, the jurisdiction of a magistrate was confined to his own country. He believed the summons of a magistrate might be served in an adjoining county; but Parliament had never thought it expedient to extend the jurisdiction of magistrates to the country at large.

MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)

asked, whether an easy precedent did not exist in the statute under which permission was frequently given to serve writs of summons out of the jurisdiction; and whether the English practice was not to avoid the issue of warrants except in serious cases, or where persons were suspected as likely to abscond?

MR. MATTHEWS

said, there was a wide distinction between the powers of the Superior Courts and those exercised by local magistrates.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)

asked, what change of circumstances, if any, had taken place in the present week which rendered it necessary and desirable to continue in the precincts of the House the presence of detectives; and whether their presence was considered necessary for the protection of Members of Parliament?

MR. MATTHEWS

No change that I am aware of has taken place, and the same precautions that have been observed continue.

MR. H. J. WILSON (York, W.R., Holmfirth)

Will the right hon. Gentleman state, as a fact, that on Wednesday last there were no more plain clothes men about the precincts of the House than there had been previously?

MR. MATTHEWS

That is what I stated distinctly.

MR. J. E. ELLIS

Will the right hon. Gentleman really deny that there were a number of men here on Wednesday that were not here on Monday and are not here to-day?

MR. MATTHEWS

I am informed distinctly that the same force of detectives is employed that has always been employed.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, were the detectives who followed the hon. Member for North Roscommon (Mr. O'Kelly) detectives who have been in the habit of being employed about the House, or others who were brought in?

MR. MATTHEWS

said, he would require Notice of the Question.

Subsequently,

MR. ANDERSON (Elgin and Nairn)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, before the arrest of the hon. Member for North Roscommon, any intimation was given to him that his presence would be required in Ireland to answer the charge upon which the hon. Member has been arrested; and, if he can state why the uniform practice in Crown prosecutions in England of communi- cating with persons against whom it is intended to institute Crown prosecutions before the issue of a warrant was not followed with regard to the hon. Member?

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)

No such intimation as that suggested in the first paragraph was given; and I am advised that no such practice as that suggested in the second paragraph exists.

MR. ANDERSON

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it had not been the universal practice to make such communications in the case of Members of the House?

MR. MATTHEWS

As far as I am aware it has not been universally the practice.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Derby)

It is quite clear, of course, that summonses issued in Ireland would not be of legal stringency in England; but where the person is resident in Ireland, and only comes here to attend to his Parliamentary duties, would there be any objection to issue a summons in Ireland, as though he were supposed to be at that time in Ireland, and to make him acquainted with the fact that such a summons had been issued in Ireland? That would give him an opportunity of making arrangements to have the summons served upon him.

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBLIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

In the case of any future summons being issued against an Irish Member, will the Government proceed by way of notification, or will they smuggle him off in the dark, as in this case?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I do not think there is any precedent for the course suggested by the right hon. Gentleman; but, of course, that is a matter to be decided by legal gentlemen. If it is assumed that when a notification is made to an Irish Member that a summons has been issued against him he will obey it, I am sorry to say that the experience I have had in the matter of some Members has been directly to the contrary.