§ (9.) £460, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Ireland.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)said he had no desire to oppose the Vote, but he was anxious to elicit an assurance from the Chief Secretary, with which he would be content, that something specifically and practical should be done in regard to a matter which was of great concern to a large number of these afflicted beings in workhouses in Ireland. He believed it was true of every part of Ireland that in workhouses there were many insane people, not properly looked after and classified, whose treatment was of the most cruel and heartless description. The other night time did not allow him to make his statement, and, as it was now late, he would abbreviate his remarks. He might adduce the instance of Dingle Workhouse, in West Kerry, where the lunatic ward was a shed, about a third the size of the House, having only an earthen floor, and which was a playground for the children in wet weather. In this shed he saw four poor, miserable, lunatic women—and both on account of the children, and on account of the lunatics, this arrangement—this want of classification—was most improper and inhuman. Even during the few minutes he was there he saw what a terrible 1721 infliction on the poor patients was the presence of the children, and he saw also how bad for the children it was to be brought into close proximity with these afflicted beings. This was not an isolated case; almost the same thing might be seen in every Irish workhouse, very few having any better arrangement. Successive Chief Secretaries had promised inquiry, and that something should be done; for 10 years past he believed such promises had been renewed, but he would content himself now with extracting yet another promise from the present occupant of the Office, that he would not allow another year to go by without a full and complete inquiry; and, where he found there was good ground for complaint, he would take steps to prevent a continuance of the scandal.
§ DR. TANNERsaid, he would add a remark, not in the nature of a request, but as a remonstrance against the neglect of duty in the way in which unfortunate pauper lunatics were treated. He could speak from knowledge of one of the largest unions in the South of Ireland. In extenuation of the right hon. Gentleman's many shortcomings, it might be said that his neglect was not greater than that of his Predecessors in Office. Cork Asylum, enlarged from time to time, had accommodation for all classes—the more violent, the idiots, and the milder forms of lunacy. And yet, in Cork Workhouse, as elsewhere, a certain number of these unfortunate people were retained in wards altogether unfit for their physical and mental condition. A little looking after, the expenditure of a little more money perhaps, and the removal of these unfortunate creatures to institutions where they would receive proper treatment, would, in many cases, effect a cure. He could enumerate at least eight cases removed to lunatic asylums from unions that had thoroughly and entirely recovered; at least he did not know of any relapse. Remonstrance after remonstrance had been addressed in vain to Dublin Castle. He sincerely hoped the time had come when the Chief Secretary would do a stroke of good in connection with this poor suffering class, for whom, at least, he ought to have some consideration.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, in answer to the hon. Member for East Donegal (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), he did not think 1722 he could be added to the list of Secretaries who had given pledges on this subject. He was perfectly aware, however, of the difficulty of dealing with lunatics in workhouses; that difficulty was felt also in England and Scotland. He was perfectly willing to carry out an inquiry, such as was suggested, to see if anything could be done to remedy that of which the hon. Gentleman complained.
§ DR. TANNERasked whether the right hon. Gentleman agreed with them; the expression of such an opinion would naturally influence the situation.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he had replied to the hon. Member that he was aware of the difficulty, both in Ireland and England, in the way of classification of lunatics in workhouses. It was desired that he should make inquiry into the subject, and this he had undertaken to do.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked whether under the law at present operative, the Irish Local Government Board had not the power to direct that any necessary arrangements should be adequately carried out, and whether the Board could not compel Guardians to give separate accommodation for this afflicted class? In the case to which he had referred this children's playground was the only place where these unfortunate women could be put; it was the lunatic ward, and spoken of as such. Under the powers of the Local Government Board, was it not competent for the Board to make arrangements to prevent this and equally cruel proceedings going on probably in many workhouses in Ireland? Would the right hon. Gentleman exhaust all the powers of the Local Government Board immediately to remove those evils, so far as it could be done?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he was not quite sure whether the powers of the Board extended so far as the hon. Gentleman suggested. He knew the Board had no power to determine what cases should be sent to the asylum. He thought, however, there was power to prevent any other persons being placed in the wards whore lunatics were confined. He would take care to investigate the matter, and see what powers could be used.
§ Vote agreed to.
1723
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £658, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1889, for the support of certain Hospitals and Infirmaries in Ireland.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLasked whether the Government had given any consideration to the recommendations of the Commission on Hospitals, and whether they intended to take any action thereon.
§ MR. SEXTONasked that the Vote should not now be taken. It must necessarily give rise to some discussion in reference to the allotment of grants next year. He had also to press for a public inquiry into the circumstances attending the death of a person—Dr. Parten—poisoned in one of the Dublin Hospitals. Considerable discussion must arise.
§ MR. JACKSONsaid, in answer to the hon. Member for South Tyrone, that the Government had given considerable attention to the Report of the Commission which inquired into these hospitals. It would be in the recollection of the Committee that the late Member for the St. Stephen's Green Division, who had since died, did introduce a Bill for the purpose of giving effect to a considerable number of the recommendations of that Commission, and he (Mr. Jackson) had the opportunity of speaking to that hon. Member on several occasions in reference to that Bill. Further, he understood that the hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Murphy) had in contemplation the introduction of a Bill, and he thought he was justified in Baying that the Government would look very favourably on a Bill that would consolidate the hospitals in the direction in which the Commission reported, and generally effect economy in management and expenditure not now distributed so advantageously as it might be. He hoped, therefore, that next Session they might have, at an early date, either that Bill introduced, or a Bill of the Government containing some arrangement by which the desired objects might be effected.
§ MR. MURPHY (Dublin, St. Patrick's), supplementing what the hon. Gentleman had just stated, said that after the lamented death of the late Member for St. Stephen's Green, overtures were made 1724 to him by the Government with reference to this subject, and as the result of negotiations the points of difference were not now very great, and he hoped that a satisfactory Bill would be agreed upon and introduced either by themselves or the Government next Session.
§ DR. TANNERsaid, the discussion that would naturally arise on the Vote concerned other towns than Dublin. For himself he had something to say in connection with the way the grant was administered in Cork and Belfast. He hoped some opportunity would be given for dealing with the subject in the material manner it deserved. It was a very serious matter; the funds granted were very small—far and away too small—but certainly they might be distributed a great deal better, and more for the benefit of everybody concerned; and certainly for the unfortunate sufferers it was desirable that the grant should be considered and discussed.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsuggested that this was scarcely the proper time for discussing the question that had been raised. All were agreed that it was expedient to pass this Vote. Nobody desired to object to the Vote as it stood; but what was desired was, that something should be done in the direction of carrying out the recommendations of the Commission; he would therefore ask whether the proper time for discussion was not on the Vote, to which nobody objected, but on the Bill that would be required before the Vote was modified—before its management was placed on a different footing. As to the other question raised—the unhappy death of a patient in a Dublin Hospital—it could hardly arise on this Vote, for it had nothing to do with the grants to be voted, and the hon. Member would probably be disposed to feel that the circumstances did not call for special inquiry except by the hospital authorities. He certainly could not see his way to direct a special inquiry into the circumstances of this unfortunate death, any more than into those of any other death by accidental poisoning in any other part of Ireland.
§ MR. SEXTONsaid, he maintained that the question was strictly relevant to the Vote. A discussion on the Vote gave the Government opportunity for obtaining a specific and conclusive declaration in reference to the future 1725 of these annual grants. One of the provisions of the Bill referred to the determination of these grants supplying their place on the Estimates by a capital sum. This was a convenient opportunity for discussion. The Corporation of Dublin had the greatest interest in the subject, for they would have representation on the Central Board of the amalgamated hospitals, and it was a question what that representation should be, whether the Government should follow the recommendation of the Commission or replace it by some recommendation of their own. Then, as to the death by poisoning to which he had alluded—the hospital was supported by Government money, the death occurred in the hospital in question, and, on the renewal of the grant, no question could be more pertinent than as to whether the hospital was properly conducted. The authorities of the hospital had been asked to order an inquiry, but they had not the courtesy to reply. The right hon. Gentleman on a former occasion gave him no satisfaction, and he was not content to leave it to the governors of the hospital. More than the officials of the hospital were concerned—the public were concerned; any other patient might become the victim of the neglect of a student at night. It would be only reasonable to allow this Vote to stand over, seeing they had carried out the arrangement and given the Government a number of votes. It was inconvenient to go into the questions raised now, for he had not the materials at hand.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he could only refer to what he had already said, and could say no more.
§ MR. SEXTONsaid, there was good reason to complain if the Government insisted. The right hon. Gentleman had asked for four Votes and the Committee had given him eight. It was ungenerous to refuse the postponement of the Vote. He must move to report Progress.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Sexton.)
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he had made the position of affairs clear. If, under the circumstances, as he had stated more than once, hon. Members desired a full discussion of the Irish 1726 Estimates, now was the time. If after what he said they still desired to report Progress, he would not oppose the Motion.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, he was under the disadvantage of being absent during part of the discussion, and some arrangement seemed to have been made that he did not understand. Was he to understand that this was the last occasion upon which Irish Estimates would be discussed at all?
§ MR. MURPHYasked, was there any Vote upon which the Report of the Commission on hospitals could be discussed?
§ MR. JACKSONsaid, he would suggest Vote 7.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
§ Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.