§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clause 1 (Short title).
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT (Sussex, N.W.)said, this appeared to 363 be a very important Bill, but he had never heard a word about it until this afternoon. He saw that it took enormous powers to enable a private Company to deal with telegraphing. He had looked carefully through the provisions of the measure, and could not see any corresponding advantages which were to accrue to this country, or even to the First Lord of the Admiralty, from giving these enormous advantages to a private Company. The other day he (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) had heard the answer to a Question given by his noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty as to Lloyd's; and that answer was, so far as he could gather, that although Lloyd's had the power of telegraphing from a great many places, yet they never gave any notice to the Admiralty with regard to what was going on in connection with shipping or in regard to any other matters. To put in the hands of a private Company powers which were contained in this Bill was a thing which he thought deserved a great deal more attention than had been given to it, or than was likely to be given to it at that time of the Session. These powers were to be compulsory, without allowing the House or the public to know anything about it. There were a large number of reservations in the Bill so far as the Crown was concerned; but private individuals were not to have their interests safeguarded, and those interests might be affected by the Company without their consent. All, however, he would say on the matter was that the Bill appeared to him to be one which deserved far more consideration than they had been able to give to it in the short time that had been at the disposal of the Committee. He therefore hoped that his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) would not press the Bill, a Bill of such importance, through the House this Session.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH) (Bristol, W.)If the hon. and gallant Member better understood what has happened with regard to this Bill, he would not speak in the way he does of faults which he imagines he has detected in it. The measure has been considered by a Select Committee, on which were Members who took considerable interest in these subjects, and 364 who carefully considered the Bill. My hon. and gallant Friend is mistaken in supposing that the Bill proposes to give to Lloyd's the wide powers he imagines. What it proposes to do is this. There is a general desire on the part of those interested in the Mercantile Marine for better facilities than at present exist for giving early intelligence of wrecks occurring on our coasts, and thus saving life and property where it cannot now be saved, by improving the means of communication between our lighthouses and lightships and the mainland. Well, Sir, Lloyd's Association, which, as the Committee knows, is an Association not trading for gain, but a public Association, communicated with the Board of Trade last year, and expressed their willingness, for the sake of the promotion of the interests of commerce, and those great interests to which I have alluded, to take an active part in providing these means of telegraphic communication, if certain powers were given to them to obtain signal stations for the purpose. These powers amounted to no more than this—power to acquire land on the coast near the lighthouses or lightships to an extent not exceeding two acres in any one case, for the purpose of providing this telegraphic communication between the lighthouses and the lightships and the mainland. That power is guarded first by the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, which is incorporated in this Bill, and under which any landowner whose land is taken can, of course, have compensation assessed by arbitrators in the ordinary way; but, further, it is guarded in this way—that no laud can be compulsorily taken except after the matter has been fully considered by the Board of Trade; a local inquiry has been, if necessary, held, and a Provisional Order has been passed through Parliament. Therefore I think that my hon. and gallant Friend and the House will see that every care has been taken to guard private rights in endeavouring to secure what I think the House will admit to be, if it can be obtained, a great public gain. I trust that the House will be willing to proceed with the Bill, because, as I have already said, there is great need of this improved means of communication. The winter is approaching; and life and property may be saved if in some places these stations can be established where 365 they are not now established. I trust, therefore, that the passing of the Bill will not be impeded.
§ ADMIRAL FIELD (Sussex, Eastbourne)said, he had only recently become acquainted with the contents of the Bill, and he was sorry to find himself obliged to offer some opposition to the Committee stage being taken at this time unless the Board of Trade would consent to introduce in it an Amendment to guard our interests as a Naval Power. Apparently all that had been thought of in framing the Bill had been to do what Lloyd's Association desired—to enable them to acquire land for the erection of signal stations for certain purposes as to which the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Trade had given them a careful explanation. Of course, there was not a single man in the House who would not sympathize with what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet as to the desirability of everything being done which could be done by the erection of telegraphic stations for the purpose of trying to save life from ships that were wrecked on our coasts; but the interests of this country, so far as it was a Naval Power, had not been thought of. There was a Saving Clause in the Bill in the interests of the Admiralty and the War Office; but when they read it what did it mean? It meant that nothing in the Bill should authorize Lloyd's Association to interfere with any lands, buildings, or rights inherent in the Board of Admiralty or War Office. But he maintained that a great deal more than that was required in this Bill. If he wanted more proof of what he said, he would only point to those pieces of intelligence which had been telegraphed all over this country as to the Naval Manœuvres which were taking place all round the coasts. The Admiralty ought to have endeavoured to guard their rights in this respect, and to prevent this intelligence from being flashed all over the country. There ought to be a Saving Clause at the end of Clause 5, empowering the Postmaster General in time of war to acquire possession of all those telegraph stations for the purpose of preventing the transmission of any intelligence concerning the movements of our Fleet or the movements of an enemy's Fleet by irresponsible persons. He maintained that the clauses of the Bill had not been carefully thought out. 366 He did not care twopence for anything but our naval supremacy; and he must say that if hon. Gentlemen sitting on the opposite Bench did not think it right to guard our rights in these important particulars, it was the duty of someone else to take care that those rights were not jeopardized. By this Bill they were granting for all time a power which they would find very difficult to resume when they required to resume it without paying large compensation; and he (Admiral Field) would be no party to passing the Bill through Committee unless the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Trade would give some guarantee that steps would be taken, by an Amendment in Clause 5, to safeguard the rights of the country in the way in which they ought to be safeguarded. As to the Committee of which the right hon. Baronet had spoken, all he (Admiral Field) knew was that he had not been a Member of it, and he did not think any naval man had been on it. If there was no naval man on such a Committee, the Government should take care that naval interests were not jeopardized, seeing that we were the greatest Naval Power in the world. He was astounded that no one thought it necessary to look after our naval interests in connection with a Bill of this kind.
§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHI am astounded that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should have criticized a measure he has not read. If he had read the 2nd clause, he would have found that it contained a provision for arrangements being made in regard to those stations which might be established under the Bill upon conditions which the Postmaster General shall prescribe, and which might include the very object which the hon. and gallant Member desires.
§ ADMIRAL FIELDsaid, that a matter of this kind should not be sprung upon the House. What he maintained was that they should not try to force a Bill of this kind upon the Committee without adequate explanation of its objects and effects. This was the first time he had looked upon it. The hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for North West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) and other hon. Members, apparently, did not understand the Bill better than he did himself. He could not under- 367 take to read all the Bills that came down in the course of 24 hours, and he maintained that the fact that he and others had not read it was an additional argument why it should not be pushed through the Committee stage in this way now.
§ MR. LEA (Londonderry, S.)said, there was one point he would like the hon. and gallant Admiral who had just spoken to consider. He should like to remind him of the case of H.M.S. Wasp, which went ashore on the North Coast of Donegal on Tory Island. That vessel went ashore in a thick fog in the dead of night.
§ ADMIRAL FIELDI know that.
§ MR. LEAsaid, the hon. and gallant Admiral know that; but did he know that if this Bill had been working in all probability many lives might have been saved? As a matter of fact, there were several vessels with steam up at Londonderry which, if there had been telegraphic communication with the lighthouse on Tory Island, the scene of the wreck, would have put off to the assistance of the crew of the Wasp, and might have saved many lives. He (Mr. Lea) was glad the Bill had been brought forward, and trusted that the Committee would pass it.
§ MR. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr)said, he hoped the Government would pay no attention to the extraordinary speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Admiral Field), who had not read the Bill, and did not appear to understand it. As he (Mr. Molloy) had taken great interest in the Bill, and had put himself to the trouble of understanding its provisions, he could assure the Committee that it was a most useful measure, and was so in the estimation of everybody who had any knowledge whatever of its objects and its aims. As to going further in the direction suggested by the hon. and gallant Admiral it was not necessary. The hon. and gallant Admiral's argument was that in case of war those interested most in the safety of the commerce of the country would flash all round intelligence calculated to do the largest amount of injury possible to commerce—intelligence as to the movements of Her Majesty's ships, and of the enemy. He certainly would oppose the Amendment suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and would support the Bill for the reasons which he had 368 stated before, and which he need not now go into. The Bill was a good one in the interest of the whole Mercantile Navy of the country, by whom it was demanded, and in the interest of our national commerce.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, he was glad he had made a few remarks upon the Bill, because it had elicited from his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade a very important explanation. He (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) had only seen the Bill that afternoon. He had, however, read it through, and what struck him was this—that the Government, having the greatest interest in these Coastguard telegraphic stations, had not thought it necessary to bring in a scheme of their own in order to keep these places in their own hands, and had allowed this most important duty to be undertaken by a private Company—such as Lloyd's. He had nothing to say against Lloyd's. Lloyd's had done a great deal of good, and would, he believed, continue to do a great deal of good; but surely the telegraphic communication all round our coasts from one Coastguard station to another, and to our lighthouses and lightships, ought, above all things, to be in the hands of the Government. He merely mentioned this because the Government seemed to be about to grant a great concession, which at some future time they might have to buy back again at the cost of a very large sum for compensation. He was glad to have heard the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, and they only showed that Bills of this kind ought to be fully explained, so that the country might understand the objects of measures of this kind. Believing, as he did, that the suggestion he had made was the most practical one of the two, he did not intend to go further at that moment than to hint to the Government whether it was wise to go further with a measure of this kind without taking the works contemplated under it into their own hands.
§ MR. HANDEL COSSHAM (Bristol, E.)said, that for the last two or three months he had been sitting upon a Committee considering questions of this kiud, and he had been struck with the importance of the Bill. He believed that the Bill would be one which would tend very much to the saving of human life and of 369 property, and he was glad the Government had been able to bring it forward. To his mind it did them great credit, and he trusted they would carry it through Committee.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)said, he did not often find himself in accord with hon. Gentlemen who sat on the Benches opposite; but really, on the present occasion, he could not help being struck by the protests made by hon. Gentlemen sitting on that side of the House. As a rule, on occasions of that kind, they heard hon. Gentlemen, Members of the Tory Party, getting up night after night protesting, some in a modified tone and some in a louder tone, and their protests always came to nothing. He would now allow these Gentlemen a chance of doing something, and of showing whether they were really capable of bringing their opinions to a practical point, and accordingly he was going to move that the Chairman do report Progress. Before he sat down, he should like to give a reason for doing this. What was proposed to be done in connection with this measure? They proposed to hand over to a private Company, as was pointed out by the hon. and gallant Member for Eastbourne (Admiral Field), certain privileges and advantages which hitherto had not been possessed by Lloyd's Association, and they proposed to do this because they supposed that in that way they would protect life and property along our coasts. In the next place, it must be borne in mind that Lloyd's Association would not erect these signal stations except in places where there was a great deal of shipping passing by. He (Dr. Tanner) was perfectly conversant with the South Coast of England; and at all the points which were practically of use and of manifest advantage at the present time Lloyd's had these signal stations erected. They had erected two or three lately on the South Coast of Ireland, and he believed if Parliament did not interfere with them, but left them alone to do their best, they would probably maintain their present position. It was no use trying to bolster them up. Of course, he could understand Her Majesty's Government wishing to do that. Their anxiety, no doubt, was to try and obtain the shipping vote. It was only a question, "You scratch me and I will scratch you," with Her Majesty's Go- 370 vernment. Hon. Gentlemen connected with Liverpool and the shipping interest throughout the country tried to promote Lloyd's to the best of their ability when the critical period came, in the hope that when the vote of the shipping interest was to be taken it would be cast for the Government. He could quite understand that; but would all this endeavour be to the benefit of the country generally and the people living round the coasts? He (Dr. Tanner) did not think so. The hon. Member for South Londonderry (Mr. Lea) had called attention to the loss of Her Majesty's Ship Wasp. Perhaps the hon. Member knew something about the coast of Donegal; but did the hon. Member imagine for one instant that if the Committee passed this Bill Lloyd's Shipping Association or Company would go to an out-of-the-way place on the coast of Donegal to erect one of their signal stations, which would be for the benefit and protection of the shipping, and conduce to the saving of life and property? Such, he imagined, would not be the case. They would always find this Association going to places where they had already got a large amount of fishing; and the Bill would not in the least promote what he believed hon. Members desired to do in the interest of common humanity—in the interest of the protection of life and property—namely, erect the signal stations in out-of-the-way places. If the privileges and advantages proposed were bestowed upon Lloyd's, we might possibly have a few more signal stations. He noticed that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Fitzgerald), who knew something about this matter, was present. He would like to have that hon. Gentleman's opinion as to whether, if they were to pass this Bill, they would have any additional structures of any practical benefit or advantage for the protection of life and property, upon the South Coast of Ireland, for instance? He hoped hon. Members opposite would insist upon further consideration being given to this Bill, and in order that such an opportunity might be afforded he begged to move that the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Dr. Tanner,)—put, and negatived.
371§ Original Question again proposed.
§ GENERAL GOLDSWORTHY (Hammersmith)said, he was bound to confess he did not think the powers proposed ought to be used by Lloyd's. He had not had an opportunity of reading the Bill until just now. The Bill had only been in the hands of private Members for an hour or two, and therefore he did not think the Committee ought to be expected to discuss it and pass it on this occasion. In his opinion the Government ought to take these powers themselves, and not hand them over to a Company.
§ COLONEL BLUNDELL (Lancashire, S.W., Ince)said, he also thought that the Government ought to take power to get possession of all the telegraph stations along the coast.
§ ADMIRAL FIELDsaid, he begged to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. He and his hon. Friends were supporters, and loyal supporters, of the Government, and he appealed to the Government, if they had any sympathy with them, not to drive this Bill down their throats. They told the Government, as their loyal supporters, that they had not had time to consider the Bill. He, as representing the Naval Service, had not yet been able to make up his mind as to the value of the Bill. The hon. and gallant Member for North-West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) had cast doubt upon the wisdom of passing the Bill, and other supporters of the Government had pleaded for delay. Why, therefore, drive it down their throats in the way now suggested? He felt strongly upon this matter. He did not oppose the Government unless he felt conscientiously bound to do so in the interest of the country and the Service to which he belonged. The Government were in possession of the whole of the Coastguard stations on the coast; and, in his opinion, the Government themselves should lay down telegraph wires, instead of allowing it to be done by a private Company. He ventured to make a respectful appeal to the Government. Seeing that they had put down other measures for November the 8th and November the 15th, he hoped the Government would postpone this measure until November 15, and allow them, in the meantime, to ascertain what was 372 the opinion of naval men and others in regard to it. This Bill had been sprung upon them by surprise. It emanated from the Lords. He had great respect for their Lordships; but he had greater respect for naval men who thoroughly understood what the country required.
§ MR. BOND (Dorset, E.)said, he hoped the Government would press this Bill forward. The Bill had been in the hands of Members for more than a week, and he thought it was evident that some hon. Members who had complained of not having seen the Bill had not looked over their Parliamentary Papers. Anyone who had lived on the sea coast and witnessed the heartrending scenes of men's lives being sacrificed, owing to the want of telegraph communication, would not hesitate for a moment in voting for the Bill. If the consideration of the Bill were postponed until November, it might be at the cost of the loss of many gallant lives. He sincerely trusted, therefore, that the Government would persevere with the measure.
§ SIR EDWARD BIRKBECK (Norfolk, E.)said, he hoped the Government would carry the Bill. He knew, as Chairman of the National Lifeboat Institution, that this was a matter of urgent importance. He was on the Board of Trade Departmental Committee last year, and that Committee went most thoroughly into the whole question. He had not a shadow of doubt that a large number of lives might be saved all round the coast of the United Kingdom if this proposal were adopted. There had been many cases brought to the knowledge of the National Lifeboat Institution where, had there been telegraphic communication from outlying islands or from floating light vessels, many lives might have been saved. He hoped the Committee would agree to pass the Bill.
§ MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.)said, there was no doubt at all it was most desirable that telegraphic communication should exist all round the coast for the purpose of promoting the saving of life at sea. But, at the same time, it seemed to him that there was a great deal of weight in the point raised by the hon. and gallant Admiral the Member for Eastbourne (Admiral Field)—namely, that it would be much better that the telegraphic communication should be in 373 the hands of the Coastguard Service. Lloyd's was a Company, formed for the purpose of a shareholder's profit, so that in reality Lloyd's wished to make some advantage out of this undertaking. He could not but say that the best way would be for the telegraphic communication to be in the hands of the Coastguards, who were under the control of the Government. There were many Coastguard stations along the coast, and it would be an easy matter for one station to communicate with another in case of need. At the same time, it was very desirable that the Coastguards should be on the most friendly terms with Lloyd's Company. He could not think this was the best proposal which could be made. What would occur would be this. Lloyd's Agency would have stations at some important points where there was large traffic; while many very large districts of coast would be entirely neglected. On the other hand, if the Coastguards all round the coast had telegraphic communications on every Coastguard station the result would be that they would have a perfect system of communication with every port.
§ THE CHAIRMANI must point out that this discussion is entirely irregular. The discussion is appropriate to the second reading of the Bill; but it does not arise on the clause specifying a short title for the measure.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause 2 (Lloyd's to have power to establish signal stations with telegraphic communication).
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, he did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade would have any objection to insert words in this clause which would enable the Government to take possession of the wires in time of national danger?
§ THE CHAIRMANsaid, the Amendment was too late. He had already put the Question that the clause stand part of the Bill. He waited awhile, because he thought it possible that some Amendment might be proposed.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH) (Bristol, W.)said, he had endeavoured to point out that there was ample power in the clause for the Government to do what the hon. and gallant Baronet had in mind. The clause distinctly provided that in any of the cases where land was taken for this purpose, it should be taken under such conditions as the Postmaster General might prescribe.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)asked, if the Postmaster General conferred these advantages or powers upon Lloyd's, what power the Government would have to insure the carrying out of the rules and regulations?
§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, that if an agreement was entered into under the provisions of this clause, the provisions of the agreement could be enforced at law.
§ ADMIRAL FIELD (Sussex, Eastbourne)said, he had great respect for the opinions of the hon. Baronet the Member for East Norfolk (Sir Edward Birkbeck) who took such a great interest in the fishing industry; but he reminded him that if this Bill were passed it would not accomplish the ends the hon. Baronet had in view. It was not likely Lloyd's would attempt to establish the stations in parts of the country round the coast where messages would not pay for the sending. They would establish stations on prominent headlands, such as Beechy Head and the Lizard, from which they could report vessels which passed. If the Government would withdraw the Bill and allow public opinion to be brought to bear upon it, he thought they would have a very different idea permeating the public mind, and in favour of the Government doing what the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for North-West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) suggested they should do—namely, lay down wires from one Coastguard station to another. Feeling as strongly as he did that this Bill ought not to be pushed on in the teeth of some of the warmest and strongest supporters of the Government—and the Government were driving the Bill down their throats in the interest of a great Society in the City of London—he begged to move that the Chairman do now report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Admiral Field.)
375MR. BARING (London)said, that the single question to be decided by the Committee was, whether they wished to postpone measures for the saving of life at sea until next year? The hon. and gallant Admiral (Admiral Field), who knew nothing about Lloyd's, said that Lloyd's only wanted to telegraph the arrival or departure of ships. What Lloyd's wanted to do was to make profit, and the way they wanted to make profit was to save loss of life and ships and cargo at sea. He trusted that the Committee would agree to the passing of the Bill.
§ MR. HANDEL COSSHAM (Bristol, E.)said, that the effect of passing this Bill would be to lessen insurance on ships, because the danger to ships would be lessened. He thought there was very great reason, therefore, why the Bill should be passed at once. Shipping had suffered great depression, and to lessen insurance would be a great benefit to the shipping interest. The hon. and gallant Admiral the Member for Eastbourne (Admiral Field) certainly appeared to have the Navy on the brain. Some hon. Members of the House certainly considered that the Mercantile Marine of the country was worth saving. He held that view; and therefore he was of opinion that the Bill might be passed with advantage.
§ DR. TANNERsaid, he had heard the remarks from the opposite Benches of the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Baring) with considerable surprise. They were now in the month of August, and the hon. Member had made a passionate appeal in favour of the immediate passing of the Bill, so as to prevent the postponement of the taking of any step for the saving of life at sea. Did the hon. Gentleman suppose that if they passed the Bill now they would secure the immediate erection of any additional signal stations? He believed the hon. and gallant Admiral (Admiral Field) was quite right. They were trying to prevent a job being perpetrated. He sincerely hoped the suggestion which had been made by the hon. and gallant Baronet would obtain the substantial support of the Committee. For anybody to state that the passing of this Bill would stud the coast with signal stations which would prevent loss of life and property during the coming year was absurd.
§ SIR JOHN COLOMB (Tower Hamlets, Bow, &c.)said, he hoped his hon. and gallant Friend (Admiral Field) would withdraw his Motion. He put it to the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether it was not the case that at the present moment the Government and the Admiralty were obliged to rely on Lloyd's for the necessary information to enable the Admiralty to make its arrangements for the defence of commerce in time of war? Lloyd's had done great service to the nation in times of peace and in times of war, and he certainly was in favour of enabling Lloyd's to take means to develop their signal system for the safety of our commerce and to give information for the protection of it in time of war. He trusted that in the interest of the Royal Navy as well as in that of commerce, in time of peace and in time of war, his hon. and gallant Friend would withdraw his Motion.
§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he must ask the Committee to decide at once whether they would go on with the Bill or not. He thought the vast majority were in favour of the Bill, and therefore they were really wasting time in debating the point. If his hon. and gallant Friend would not withdraw his Motion let them divide upon it at once.
§ MR. CREMER (Shoreditch, Haggerston)I claim to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.
§ DR. TANNERchallenged the Chairman's declaration that the Noes had it.
§ THE CHAIRMANWill the hon. Member name another Teller?
§ DR. TANNERAdmiral Field.
§ ADMIRAL FIELDNo, no!
§ DR. TANNERThe hon. and gallant Member for North-West Sussex.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTNo, no!
§ THE CHAIRMANIf the hon. Gentleman fails to find another Teller the Noes have it.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clauses 3 to 17, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without further Amendment; Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.