HC Deb 08 September 1887 vol 320 cc1817-33

(The Lord Advocate, Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland, Sir Herbert Maxwell.)

COMMITTEE. [Progress 5th September.]

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 6 (Duties and powers of school board with respect to technical schools).

MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.)

In the absence of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. E. Robertson) I beg to move the Amendment which stands in his name. The question which is raised in that Amendment is a very important question of principle. The other night the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. H. Smith) observed that there was only one Scotch Member opposed to this Bill. Well, he was very nearly, but not quite correct. If he bad said that not one Scotch Member was opposed to the Bill he would have been perfectly correct. I objected, however, and several Scotch Members objected to this Bill being brought on at so very late an hour that it was scarcely possible to get fair consideration for the question which was raised by it— the very important question of principle. Now, Sir, the clause, as it stands, is an enabling clause, and it is part of an enabling or permissive Bill. The principle of the Bill is simply this. It is to take away the prohibition which at the present moment excites much displeasure amongst the Scotch school boards—a prohibition which prevents them from using any of the money of the ratepayers for the purpose of providing buildings for technical education. The object of this Bill is to enable the school board, which is the only authority in Scotland concerned with education, to add technical instruction to the other subjects which it is within their power to teach. This clause provides that the school board may use for the purposes of a technical school any building, or part of any building, now vested with the school board for the purposes of the Education (Scotland) Acts of 1872 and 1883, but it adds this important Proviso—" with the consent of the Scotch Education Department." Now, Sir, that is the clause to which we object, and to which I, for my part, will offer very strong resistance. I object to it for this reason. If the Scotch Education Department were to give us any money for the purpose of technical instruction, then I admit that the Scotch Education Department would have a right to a voice in the way in which that money was to be spent. But the Scotch Education Department under this Bill does not contribute one single penny in aid of the rates for the purpose of technical instruction, and therefore to give to the Scotch Education Department the power to interfere with the school boards in the management of that which is exclusively their own, and in respect of instruction which does not impose any burden on the Exchequer, is, I venture to say, to introduce a principle totally at variance with the whole course of legislation, and one which is very inconvenient and objectionable. Let us consider what the operation of this clause will be. The school board investigating the facts in a particular locality is of opinion that some particular school or part of a school should be used for the purpose of technical instruction. In my opinion the school board is the best judge of that question and the only proper judge, but under this Bill before they can act they must first of all present a Memorial to the Education Department, and the Memorial must be considered by someone, and that Department gives its consent. Assuming that that might be an intelligent consent, and a consent founded on inquiry and involving inquiry, what you are doing is that you are creating a new Department in London to do work that is wholly useless and unnecessary — which is worse than useless and unnecessary—which is entirely mischievous. How is the Secretary of a Scotch Department to form an opinion as to whether a particular school ought or ought not to be used for technical instruction? He has no knowledge of the circumstances of the locality. If he institutes an inquiry who is going to inquire? He cannot possibly employ anybody who is better acquainted with the locality than the school board. The opinion of a Secretary in London never can be founded on the information that is accessible to the school board, therefore the inference is that the opinion of the Department must necessarily be less valuable than the decision of the school board itself. Again, Sir, I am one of those who hold very strongly the opinion that the powers of Local Authorities should as far as possible be left unfettered by a central bureaucracy either in London or in Edinburgh. Where the Central Authority has the disposition of public funds I should recognize their right to interfere, but where no such funds are forthcoming, to create a new Department to interfere with the Scotch school boards is objectionable in itself. It is also objectionable from the point of view of the taxpayer. We often hear of economy in this House, but how can you have economy if you persist in making useless work? If you make useless work you have to appoint persons to do it, and you thereby establish a serious expense which will continually increase; and under this clause, and under another clause to which I will call attention presently, you are creating very expensive administrative machinery in London which can be of no use, which is founded on no principle, and which must be necessarily an unjustifiable burden on the general taxpayer. Now, Sir, it may be said that at the present moment with regard to elementary education in Scotland the Scotch Department has a right to interfere. Of course it has, because the Scotch Department is the means by which the funds for carrying on the educational work of that country is dealt out to the people of Scotland. If the Scotch Education Department were to give us money for technical instruction. I should not object, but I do object now for the reason that there is a Department of the State which will assist the school boards in technical instruction, and that is the Department of Science and Art. The school boards have certain grants from the Department of Science and Art, and must follow the conditions laid down by that body. To introduce a third wheel, to introduce wholly unnecessary machinery, is a piece of policy which I am curious to know how the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H.A. Macdonald) can defend. It seems to me that this is a clause on which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has been misled by the influence of the Heads of Departments. We know that there is a constant tendency in Government Offices to act on the maxim which used to be professed by the Judges, that the business of a good Judge is to enlarge his jurisdiction. It would seem as though it were the desire now of a good Secretary to enlarge his powers. I trust the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate will agree to omit these words, the omission of which I now move.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, lines 27 and 28, to leave out the words "with the consent of the Scotch Education Department."—(Mr. E. Robertson.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H. A. MACDONALD) (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities)

I am certainly very much astonished at the ground taken by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter). He declares that the Scotch Education Department has nothing to do with this matter. Does he not realize that this clause is a clause by which a school is to be erected for the purpose of elementary education originally and then to be turned into a technical school? Is it not important when it is proposed to use the existing buildings of State-aided schools for technical instruction—is it not important to see that these elementary schools are not so used as to interfere with their primary and proper purpose—namely, their being used for elementary education? And what is a more fit authority to see to that than the Education Department? As to what the hon. Gentleman has said with regard to the Scotch Education Department not providing any money for the obtaining of these schools, the Scotch Education Department, of course, has control of the grants which go to keep the schools as State-aided schools. I should be very much astonished if the Scotch Members were to agree with the hon. Gentleman in what he suggests; but certainly, so far as the Government are concerned, they must oppose it.

MR. PROVAND (Glasgow., Blackfriars, &c.)

I rise, Sir, to support the Amendment. The Scotch Education Department is not made up of a body of men who can obtain the confidence of the people of Scotland. It is common knowledge that we have our own educational methods and our own ideas of the manner in which our people ought to be educated. In the opinion of some persons it may be that these are mere prejudices. Be that as it may, these opinions are held very strongly in Scotland, The Scotch Education Department is made up of five principal Members. Three of these five are the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Home Secretary, and the Lord President of the Council. Now, what can these persons know about education in Scotland? If they were to interfere in any way whatever it would be merely to the prejudice of education in that country; if they do not interfere then they are mere surplusage. If the Board were made up of those who represented the interests of the Scotch people, I should have no objection to the clause as it stands; but I am certain the people of Scotland would have no confidence in a Department constituted of the men I have just named, with only two others who may be supposed to know something about Scotch education—namely, the Secretary for Scotland and the Lord Advocate. May I ask the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate if there is any intention to reform the personnel of the Board, because it certainly stands much in need of it. There is not a member of the Board who is getatable by the people of Scotland, or who is in touch with the people of Scotland. If the Board were made up, say, of the Lord Advocate, the Scottish Secretary, and four or five Scottish Members of Parliament nominated by the Government, that Board would, to some extent, possess the confidence of the people of Scotland. The Scotch people would be able to approach the Board, or some members of it, and the majority of the people would be in touch with it, and the Board would know what their wants were, and would try to satisfy those wants. But, at the present time the only person who is approachable on the Board is a permanent official, and we know what permanent officials are. They will simply meet reforming proposals of every kind by advancing as many difficulties as they can. It is not to the advantage of permanent officials to make reforms or alterations, beneficial or otherwise. It is to their interest to leave matters as much as possible where they are. It is for that reason, and because the personnel of the Board is not such as will carry with it the confidence of the people of Scotland, that I support the Amendment of the hon. Member for North Aberdeen.

MR. MASON (Lanark, Mid)

I oppose the Amendment, and I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate has answered very satisfactorily the objections which have been raised to the clause. Power must centre somewhere. Why should not the Scotch Education Department have as full control over technical education as over any other branch of education? I cannot see, for my part, why there should be any alteration in the central power. I should have preferred to see the Education Board in Edinburgh, but as that cannot be, I fail to see any real cause for the objections raised, considering that hitherto the work has been done exceedingly well. My hon. Friend the Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow (Mr. Provand) has complained of the constitution of the Board. If he can prove it is not satisfactory to the Scotch people let him move an alteration. I have heard no such complaints as the hon. Gentleman refers to, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary interfere in the slightest degree with education in Scotland. I believe the officials are doing their work admirably, and therefore I do not think there is the slightest necessity for this Amendment. I shall give my support to the Government.

MR. HUNTER

The right hon. and learned Lord Advocate said he would be surprised if any considerable number of Scotch Members were of my opinion. With the exception of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lanark (Mr. Mason) who had just spoken, I do not think he will find any who are not of my opinion. It is very unfortunate that this Bill should be brought on at a period of the Session when Scotch Members—owing to other engagements— have left town. I assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that had all the Scotch Members been present he would have found himself in a very-small minority indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lanark does not see why the Scotch Education Department should not have the same control over technical education as our elementary education. I think I had explained to the Committee that the Scotch Education Department pays for elementary education, and that they are not going to pay for technical education, and that that makes all the difference in the world. With regard to the argument of the Lord Advocate, I must confess I never heard a thinner, or a lower argument advanced. The Scotch Education Department is going to strangle the young Hercules of technical education in Scotland, and for what reason? Simply and solely because there are some portions of some schools which may have been built out of money contributed by Parliament. How can it be supposed that the school boards are going to substitute technical education for elementary education? The contrary is the result. The idea that the school boards of Scotland are going to rush to the destruction of elementary schools for the purpose of introducing technical schools is as wild an idea as I ever heard expressed. I have received no satisfaction on this point, and as far as I am concerned the Scotch Education Department shall never have the same power over technical instruction that they have over elementary instruction. Technical education is a matter in which local spontaniety is of great importance, and, in my opinion, there can be nothing worse for technical education than that it should be put into the hands of one man, who has his own particular fads. Every school board acts according to its own mind. It pays for its own work. The ratepayers have to find the money, and I should like to know whether they are not to have a voice in its disbursement?

MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. Rollox)

I quite agree with what my hon. Friend has said with regard to the Scotch Education Department, and in the necessity for a reform of that Department, and I do hope that the Government will see their way at some future time to undertake a reform of the Department. But with regard to this particular clause my hon. Friends are under a perfect miscomprehension. There is no necessity for leaving out the consent of the Scotch Education Department. These schools are not only under the control of the school board, but the Scotch Education Department. It is the duty of the Department to see that the schools are not applied to any purposes detrimental to elementary education.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 29, leave out "now."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question, "That the word ' now ' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed, In page 2, line 30, after "1883," insert the words "and a school board or combination of school board may, with the consent of the Scotch Education Department, use for the purposes of the Education (Scotland) Acts, 1872 to 1883, any buildings, or part of any buildings, authorised by this Act."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

MR. HUNTER

I beg to propose the Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. E. Robertson) —namely, to leave out the words "with the consent of the Scotch Education Department," in lines 31 and 32. This is the same point as I raised before, only in this instance the necessity of the Amendment is greater. The school board is not to be allowed to go to the Public Works Loan Commissioners without the consent of the Scotch Education Department. Now that is emphatically an unnecessary provision.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

It is for the purpose of enabling the school board to spread the payment of the expense of providing a technical school over a number of years.

MR. HUNTER

Then why go to the Scotch Education Department? This Amendment, as I say, raises the same point as my last Amendment, only the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate has not got the technical plea that the Government have contributed any money in the matter.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, lines 31 and 32, leave out "with the consent of the Scotch Education Department." —(Mr. Hunter.)

Question, "That the words ' with the consent of the Scotch Education Department' stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 33, after "years," insert "not exceeding 35 years, unless with the sanction of the Treasury, and in any case."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. CALDWELL

I think it would be more advantageous if the maximum period were limited to 35 years. The clause allows 50 years in exceptional cases. I hope that if the Scotch Members are found to be unanimous in a matter of this kind, the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate will limit the number of years to 35.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

I will consider the question before Report.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 (Combination of school boards to provide technical school).

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 11, after the word "school," to insert the words "and the sum necessary to meet any deficiency on the technical school accounts."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 13, to leave out the word "thereof," and insert the words "of said resolution."— (Mr. Caldwell.)

Question, "That the word ' thereof ' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question, "That the words ' of said resolution' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 (Scholars admissible to technical schools).

Amendment proposed, In page 3, line 21, to leave out from "from" to" Act," in line 25, inclusive, and insert" under section seventy-three of ' The Education (Scotland) Act, 1872,' as amended by section seven of ' The Education (Scotland) Act, 1883.' "—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to. Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.)

I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate might well dispense with this clause. It is one which might operate inconveniently, and it is really unnecessary. No person goes to a school, and pays fees to go to that school, unless he has reason to think he is going to get some benefit from it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 10 (Technical schools deemed public. Effect of attendance).

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 29, after the word "Parliament," to insert the words" under the Education (Scotland) Acts, 1872 to 1883."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 (Definitions).

Amendment proposed, In page 3, line 32, prefix the following words: —" The expression ' technical school ' means a school or department of a school in which technical instruction is given, and ' school board ' shall include combination of school boards."— (The Lord Advocate.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.)

I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name. The reason why I move this Amendment is simply that, without interfering with the discretion of the Science and Art Department, I wish to give power to the school boards to teach any of the subjects that are enumerated in this list at their own expense, if they choose to do so. If the school boards choose to teach these subjects, there is no reason why they should not do so without interference from the Scotch Education Department. The Glasgow School Board has passed a resolution, which I dare say has reached the hands of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate, in which they lay great stress on the point. I do not wish to give the school boards too wide a discretion, and I think my Amendment gives sufficient guarantee against any extravagance in the public business.

Amendment proposed, In page 3, line 32, leave out from "means," to "any," in line 34, and insert" the following subjects: agriculture, drawing, modelling, working in leather, clay, glass, wood, and metal, weaving, dyeing, designing, printing, bleaching, building, machine construction, naval architecture, navigation, civil and mechanical engineering, mathematics, mechanics, natural philosophy, chemistry, metallurgy, textile fabrics, geology, botany, French, German, and."—(Mr. Hunter.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H. A. MACDONALD) (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities)

I am very much afraid the effect of the Amendment will be the very opposite of what my hon. Friend intends. Let me, in passing, notice that there are certainly subjects mentioned in the Amendment which, under no aspect, can be called technical subjects. For instance, I doubt very much whether French and German can be called technical subjects. Now, does this Amendment not do just the very thing it is desired to avoid? Here are a number of subjects, and the effect of specifying them will be that if any new subjects arise—and subjects arise every day—it will not be competent to teach them. The whole scope and intention of the Act is to give the greatest possible freedom; and I must protest against the suggestion that it is the object and intention of the Scotch Education Department to interfere with or cripple the school boards in carrying out reasonable technical instruction in their schools.

MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. Rollox)

There is another element which my hon. Friend the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter) has lost sight of, and that is the existence at present of technical schools. There are technical schools existing now in Glasgow, and it would never do to allow the School Board to establish schools which would interfere with the present technical schools without having the consent of the Scotch Education Department. We say that for the efficiency of technical schools you should not allow schools to come into collision and competition with each other without having the check of the Scotch Education Department.

MR. HUNTER

I am afraid the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate has not followed the Amendment. It enumerates a certain number of subjects which he complains of as being too wide, and then the words of the clause come in "in every subject which may for the time being be sanctioned by that Department "— namely, the Science and Art Department. The Science and Art Department is wholly unlimited. There is nothing which may not be introduced under these words; therefore the enumeration of these specific subjects is in addition to the powers of the Department, and not a limitation or a qualification of its powers. This is a matter upon which the School Board of Glasgow, which is the largest school board in Scotland, and I suppose, in some respects, the most important, have laid great stress. They are extremely desirous they should not be limited to the particular number of subjects which may, from time to time, be suggested by the Science and Art Department,

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

I have to propose that the subjects shall be approved by the Scotch Education Department.

MR. WOODALL (Hanley)

Did I understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman to say that modern languages are not to be regarded as technical subjects?

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

I said that French and German are not technical subjects.

MR, WOODALL

But surely they are essential features in commercial instruction, which, it is admitted, ought to be encouraged in any technical scheme.

MR. MASON (Lanark, Mid)

I suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter) that he should withdraw his Amendment, because I really believe its effect would be to limit the instruction, which I know is not the object which he has in view.

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE) (Kent, Dartford)

I think the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter) is under a misapprehension as to the Definition Clause. A vast number of these subjects are subjects for which grants are given by the Science and Art Department. What my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate desires is to leave the subjects as open as possible. They are now left open in the Bill.

MR. HUNTER

I think that the very argument of the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate furnishes a strong reason why we should insert words of this kind. He says that French and German are not to be included in the subjects for which grants are to be given, because they are not technical subjects. There can be no possible harm in enlarging the clause by inserting particular subjects.

MR. WOODALL

Do the Science and Art Department undertake to give grants for any subject approved by the Scotch Education Department?

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

Not at all.

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 32, after the words '' means instruction," insert the words "in subjects approved by the Scotch Educational Department, or "—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, lines 36 and 37, to leave out all the words from" Department" to the end of the Clause.— (Mr. Caldwell.)

Question," That those words be there left out," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, to leave out lines 40 and 41. — (Mr. Hunter.)

Question," That those lines be there left out," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

New Clause— (School for subjects other than those for which grant is claimed to be conducted under Scotch Code.) Every school provided under this Act shall, in respect to all subjects other than those for which a grant is claimed from the Science and Art Department, be conducted in accordance with the conditions which may from time to time be set forth in the Scotch Education Code annually laid before Parliament under the heading ' Technical Schools,'

—(The Lord Advocate,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed "That the Clause be now read a second time"

MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.)

This clause is one which carries the objectionable principle I have already alluded to further than any clause of the Bill. It is a clause which provides that, where a school board receives any money for the purpose of the Bill, the school board can only act under the control of the Scotch Education Department. It is carrying out, in the most naked form, the principle which, I say, underlies several clauses of the Bill. This is an express statutory declaration that in a case where a Government Department gives any money to a Local Body, that authority shall not have power to lay down any conditions without the consent of the Central Authority; and I must, therefore, object to the second reading of the clause.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 104; Noes 16: Majority 88. [3.20 A.M.]

AYES.
Addison, J.E. W. Fitz - Wygram, Gen. Sir F. W.
Agg-Gardner, J. T.
Aird, J. Fletcher, Sir H.
Ambrose, W. Folkestone, right hon. Viscount
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.
Baden-Powell, G. S. Forwood, A. B.
Balfour, rt. hon. A. J. Fraser, General C. C.
Barry, A. H, Smith- Gedge, S.
Bentinck, W. G. C. Gent-Davis, R.
Beresford, Lord C. W. De la Poer Gibson, J. G.
Gilliat, J. S.
Bethell, Commander G. R. Godson, A. F.
Goldsworthy, Major General W. T.
Big-wood, J.
Blundell, Colonel H. B. H. Goschen, rt. hn. G. J.
Grimston, Viscount
Bond, G. H. Hall, C.
Bonsor, H. C. O. Hamilton, right hon. Lord G. F.
Borthwick, Sir A.
Brodrick, hon. W. St. J. F. Heathcote, Capt. J. H. Edwards-
Brookfield, A. M. Herbert, hon. S.
Bruce, Lord H. Hill, right hon. Lord A. W.
Burghley, Lord
Caldwell, J. Hill, Colonel E. S.
Carmarthen, Marq. of Hoare, S.
Charrington, S. Holland, rt. hon. Sir H. T.
Clarke, Sir E. G.
Colomb, Capt. J. C. R. Hornby, W. H.
Cooke, C. W. R. Hunt, F. S.
Corry, Sir J. P. Isaacs, L. H.
Cotton, Capt. E. T. D. Jackson, W. L.
Davenport, H. T. Jeffreys, A. F.
De Lisle, E. J.L.M. P. Kelly, J. R.
De Worms, Baron H. Kenyon - Slaney, Col. W.
Dimsdale, Baron R.
Dyke, right hon. Sir W.H. Kimber, H.
King - Harman, right hon. Colonel E. R.
Egerton, hon. A. de T.
Elton, C. I. Knowles, L,
Evelyn, W. J. Lafone, A.
Eyre, Colonel H. Lawrence, W. F.
Fergusson, right hon. Sir J. Lewisham, right hon. Viscount
Finch, G. H. Long, W. H.
Fisher, W. H. Macartney, W. G. E.
Fitzgerald, R. U. P.
Macdonald, right hon. J. H. A. Ritchie, rt. hon. C. T.
Robertson, J. P. B.
Maclure, J. W. Round, J.
Mason, S. Smith, right hon. W. H.
Matthews, rt. hon. H.
MaxWell, Sir H. E. Stanhope, rt. hon. E.
Milvain, T. Stephens, H. C.
Mount, W. G. Talbot, J. G.
Murdoch, C. T. Temple, Sir R.
Northcote, hon. H. S. Tollemache, H. J.
Parker, hon. F. Webster, Sir R. E.
Pelly. Sir L. Weymouth, Viscount
Plunket, right hon. D. R. Wortley, C. B. Stuart-
Powell, F. S. TELLERS,
Puleston, Sir J. H. Douglas, A. Akers-
Reed, H. B. Walrond, Col. W. H.
NOES.
Biggar, J. G. O'Connor, J. (Tippry.)
Carew, J. L. Pickersgill, E. H.
Clancy, J. J. Pyne, J. D.
Conway, M. Rowlands, J.
Conybeare, C. A. V. Sexton, T.
Cossham, H. Stewart, H.
Dillwyn, L. L.
M'Arthur, W. A. TELLERS.
Nolan, J. Hunter, W. A.
O'Brien, P. Provand, A. D.

Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.

MR. MASON (Lanark, Mid)

I rise to move the second, reading of a new clause which I have placed upon the Paper. The object I have in view is to give power to school boards to assist other schools in providing technical education. As an instance, I will take the City of Glasgow. You have there 50 trades, perhaps in ail of which instruction is required, and it will be almost impossible for the school board to erect schools to provide for all this technical education. It will be very expensive work indeed to do all that will be required, and such as none of our cities, situated as Glasgow is, would face. There would be considerable difficulty in meeting all the demands on the school boards for technical education. But there are already a number of schools which stand greatly in need of assistance from the school board; and by the clause I have put down the school board would be able to give that assistance which without it they would have no power to grant. Of course, the school board would impose their own conditions as to the way in which they would assist the other schools. The object I have in view is, as much as possible, to save the money of the ratepayers, and also to stimulate the various trades to set up schoolrooms in the expectation that the school board would give them assistance. There are many towns in Scotland where there are three, six, or more trades being carried on, and in which it would be very difficult to set up schools for the purpose of the technical instruction required, without the assistance I propose should be given by the school board; and I have a confident feeling that a stimulus would be given in the right direction if my clause were added to the Bill. I trust, therefore, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate will agree to the second reading of the clause.

New Clause— (Power to school board to assist technical school.) Subject to the conditions under which a school board may provide and maintain a technical school (so far as such conditions are applicable) a school board may (with the consent of the Scotch Education Department and in terms thereof) assist other schools providing technical instruction,"—(Mr. Mason,)

—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be now read a second time."

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H. A. MACDONALD) (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities)

I do not quite like the clause in its present form; there is one portion of it which it would be necessary to alter, and that is at the end of the clause. I suggest that words should be struck out of the last line for the purpose of inserting "on such terms and conditions as may be prescribed provide technical instruction." If the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lanark will admit such words, I shall certainly be inclined to support his Amendment.

MR. MASON

I shall be very glad to accept them.

MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. Rollox)

I feel compelled to give this clause my most strenuous opposition, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House (Mr. W. H. Smith) to consider the very important principle involved in my hon. Friend's proposal. According to the Education (Scotland) Act, 1872, school boards were authorized to provide board schools for elementary instruction; but there was no provision in that Act authorizing school boards to contribute money to schools not under their management. There is no such principle in operation in Scotland as that the ratepayers' money should be collected for the purpose of providing schools to be maintained in any other way than under the control of the school board itself. It is an entirely novel principle which my hon. Friend seeks to introduce, when he asks for the subsidizing of schools that are not entirely under the control of the school board. Supposing that yen hold that school boards are to be entitled to subsidize technical schools which are purely of a voluntary nature, then you raise this important question—that they also will claim that they ought to have a grant out of the local rates for the purpose of starting other schools which may be quite as necessary as any technical schools can be; and I am surprised that the Government, at this period of the Session, should entertain a proposal which will meet, undoubtedly, with strong opposition.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)

I venture to appeal to the hon. Member for Mid Lanark (Mr. Mason) not to press his clause this evening, but to give the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate an opportunity of considering it between the present time and the Report. If the clause is pressed now, I shall feel it my duty to oppose it.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. Rollox)

There is another point which I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman will adjust before Report. According to the Education Act, all accounts must be laid before Parliament. It is necessary that the accounts of the schools should be taken and presented in the same way, and I suggest that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should provide for this on the Report.

Schedule.

Amendment proposed, in page 4, to leave out the Schedule.—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.