HC Deb 08 September 1887 vol 320 cc1834-42

ACCOUNTS considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Resolved, That it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March 1886, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

  1. (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £3,644,763 8s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £43,404 8s. 5d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy Services exceeded the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £3,601,358 19s. 9d.;
  2. (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £3,664 16s. 3d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £106,222 7s. 8d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Navy Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £102,557 11s. 5d.;
  3. (c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses 43,558 16 3
Total Deficits 3,542,360 4 7

(2.) Resolved, That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations in Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of the

SCHEDULE.
Number of Vote. Navy Services, 1885–6, Votes. Gross expenditure Appropriations in Aid
Excess of Actual Estimated Gross Expenditure. Surpluses Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. Deficiencies of Actual as comprd. with Estimated Receipts. Surpluses of Actual as comprd. with Estimated Receipts.
1. 2. 3. 4.
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Wages, &c. to Seamen and Marines 106,454 15 7 44 16 9
2 Victuals and Clothing for ditto 83,251 11 0 242 2 8
3 Admiralty Office 3,234 14 3 10 14 7
4 Coast Guard Service and Naval Reserves, &c 12,634 18 11 111 0 2
5 Scientific Branch 783 3 6 2,037 10 9
6 Dockyards and Naval Yards at Home and Abroad 98,047 2 10 255 11 2
7 Victualling Yards, &c. 3,403 12 0 106 10 1
8 Medical Establishments, &c. 769 3 5 25 5 8
9 Marine Divisions 925 14 1 22 15 4
10 Sec. 1 Naval stores 610,886 17 10 82,481 1 7
Sec. 2 Machinery, Ships built by Contract, &c. 1,429,387 10 9 13,060 6 5
11 New Works, Buildings, Yard Machinery, &c. 3,990 7 4 1,252 17 6
12 Medicines and Medical Stores 8,882 11 11 697 4 2
13 Martial Law, &c. 1,015 5 2 19 4 0
14 Miscellaneous Services 32,049 13 8 1,308 5 2
15 Half Pay, &c 13,169 3 7 39 18 2
16 Sec. 1 Military Pensions and Allowances 11,668 19 4 5 11 1
Sec.2 Civil Pensions and Allowances 302 12 1 58 0 6
17 Army Department—Conveyance of Troops 1,266,141 19 7 8,108 8 2
Amount written off as irrecoverable 1,167 19 9
3,644,763 8 2 43,404 8 5 3,664 16 3 106,222 7 8
Net Deficit, £3,601,358 19 9 Net Surplus £102,557 11 5
Total Deficit to be £3,498,801 8s. 4d.
Met out of the Vote of credit for Naval and Military Operations.

said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services towards meeting the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.

(3.) Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.

(4.) Resolved, That it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March 1886, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

  1. (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £6,165,137 5s. 6d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the Estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £129,190 1s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Army Services exceeded the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £6,035,947 4s. 5d.;
  2. (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £20,749 3s. 10d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £327,410 11s.

SCHEDULE
No. of Vote. Army Services, 1885–6, Votes. Gross Expenditure. Appropriations in Aid.
Excess Actual Estimated Gross Expenditure. Surpluses Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. Surpluses Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.
1. 2. 3. 4.
£ s. d £ s. d £ s. d £ s. d
1 Pay of the General Staff, Regimental Pay, &c. 747,340 15 10 266,666 19 10
2 Divine Service 5,261 1 9 17 9 7
3 Administration of Military Law 1,058 12 5 146 18 9
4 Medical Establishments and Services 45,076 10 9 112 17 0
5 Militia Pay and Allowances 66,452 9 2 1,110 19 11
6 Yeomanry Cavalry Pay and Allowances 4,991 14 8 17 7 10
7 Volunteer Corps Pay and Allowances 1,144 18 10 176 5 6
8 Army Reserve Force Pay and Allowances 41,438 7 9 89 19 7
9 Commissariat, Transport, and Ordnance Store Establishments 349,722 12 11 2,735 18 8
10 Provisions, Forage, Fuel, Transport, and other Services 1,447,094 18 6 47,096 19 8
11 Clothing Establishments, Services, and Supplies 325,198 19 9 3,814 6 4
Carried forward 2,991,139 3 4 43,641 19 0 5,213 18 4 316,754 4 4

as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Army Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £306,661 7s. 2d.;

(c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.: —

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses 136,332 8 9
Total Deficits 5,865,618 6 0

(5.) Resolved, That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Army Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated appropriations in aid, in respect of the same Services, and have also temporarily authorised the application of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services towards meeting the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.

(6.) Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.

No. of Vote. Army Services, 1885–6, Votes. Gross Expenditure. Appropriations in Aid.
Excess Actual Estimated Gross Expenditure. Surpluses Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. Surpluses Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.
1. 2. 3. 4.
£ s. d £ s. d £ s. d £ s. d
Brought forward 2,991,139 3 4 43,641 19 0 5,231 18 4 316,754 4 4
12 Supply, Manufacture, and Repair of Warlike and other Stores 2,327,461 4 10 2,622 15 0
13 Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad 809,358 4 6 6,840 9 5
14 Establishments for Military Education 3,925 2 3 9,207 15 11
15Miscellaneous Effective Services 8,123 5 2 2,642 16 7
16 Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges of the War Office 11,440 15 1 28 4 0
17 Rewards for Distinguished Services 2,974 10 9 39 8 7
18 Half Pay 17,235 3 5 696 4 9
19 Retired Pay, &c. 32,232 8 0 357 5 11
20 Widows' Pensions 10,853 5 3 69 0 0
21 Pensions for Wounds 2,867 16 3 300 0 0
22 Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals 59 2 10 95 0 1
23 Out-Pensions 26,019 5 2 3,216 18 11
24 Superannuation Allowances 5,018 5 9 57 13 0
25 Militia, Yeomanry Cavalry, and Volunteer Corps, Retired Pay 1,058 149
Balance irrecoverable 919 0 5
6,165,137 5 7 129,190 1 2 20,749 3 10 327,410 11 0
Net Deficit, £6,035,947 4 5 Net Surplus, £306,661 7 2
Total Deficit, £5,729,285 17 3, to be met out of the Vote of Credit for Naval and Military Operations.
MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Camborne)

I think we have a right to ask Her Majesty Government for some reason why it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account that there is this enormous excess over the original amount of the estimated expenditure. The general method of looking after the expenditure of taxes in this House is about as loose and slipshod as anything can be, and therefore I say we ought to have an explanation of the reason for our being asked to agree to this lengthy Resolution.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

This Resolution merely asks for the formal sanction of Parliament to the application of certain sums the temporary application of which has been sanctioned by the Treasury. It is also a question of sanctioning the transfer and appropriation to certain Services of surpluses which have arisen under Votes granted for other Services, a practice which hon. Members will be aware is allowed in the case of the Army and Navy, but which is not permitted in the case of the Civil Service. It is merely a transfer of the saving on one Vote to the deficit on another, for which the Treasury asks the formal sanction of Parliament.

MR. CONYBEARE

I do not want to oppose the Resolution, and I am perfectly certain it would be of no use if I were to do so. I simply express my opinion that this is a most unsatisfactory way of doing the business of the country, and at the same time the hope that the time is not far distant when we shall know more about these matters.

MR. CLANCY) (Dublin Co., N.

The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury has stated that this is a Motion for the purpose of transferring the surplus arising on one Vote to reduce the deficit occurring on another. But there appears to have been a deficit in every case, and I must therefore ask for some further explanation from the hon. Gentleman.

MR. JACKSON

I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that the money provided by Parliament in the present case comes from a Vote of Credit, which, as the hon. Gentleman will know, is quite different from an ordinary Vote on the Estimates, inasmuch as it is administered by the Treasury.

MR. CLANCY

Is this the usual thing?

MR. JACKSON

No.

MR. CLANCY

My impression was that there was a pledge given at the end of last Session that this sort of thing would not occur again.

MR. JACKSON

There seems that there has been a very large amount of what is called the war scare. Those sums were paid out of the Vote of Credit, and were sanctioned by the Treasury.

MR. SEXTON) (Belfast, W

Members of the Committee are very disagreeably struck, after having heard the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury say that this is a matter merely for devoting surpluses for the payment of deficits, to hear that the surpluses were £40,000, where the deficits amounted to £3,500,000 in one case, and that whilst in the other case the surplus amounted to £306,000 the deficit amounts to over £6,000,000. I should like to ask whether the amount set out in the first of these columns has been covered by the Vote on Account?

MR. JACKSON

Certainly.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.