HC Deb 20 May 1887 vol 315 cc720-2
MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, When it was intended to bring in the promised Bill to regularize the position of his Under Secretary; if his attention has been called to the speech of Colonel King-Harman, M. P., at a meeting held on 10th January, 1884, in Rathmines Rink, to protest against Earl Spencer's action in removing the Earl of Rossmore from the Magistracy, when the present Under Secretary for Ireland declared he was an Orangeman; if he is aware that at the meeting called to welcome the Right Hon. W. H. Smith, in the Rotunda, Dublin, on 24th January, 1884, the Under Secretary is reported to have said— It was easy enough in the North for men to stand together. The Orange Association, of which he (Colonel King-Harman) was a member, was a strong bond of union for men professing one faith in this country; whether the Resolution of the House of Commons of 11th August, 1835, directed against the Orange Society, has ever been rescinded; whether, on 23rd February, 1836, this House presented an humble Address to the Crown to— Take measures for the effectual discouragement of Orange Lodges and all Societies excluding persons of different faiths using signs and symbols and acting by associated branches, to which on 25th February, 1836, a gracious reply was immediately returned by the Crown; whether thereupon a Treasury Minute, dated 15th March, 1836, was issued, declaring that any Orange Civil Servants should immediately withdraw from the Order, and that no person "who serves in whatever capacity under the Crown" should thereafter become a member, or be in any way connected with, the Orange Body; and, whether the Government have ascertained if Colonel King-Harman has withdrawn from the Orange Order?

MR. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the Question, may I ask him if he is not aware that, in accordance with the Resolution referred to in the Question, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland was totally dissolved in 1836; and if in 1845 the Orange Institution was not reorganized upon a new basis, in consequence of the revolutionary proceedings in the agitation for the repeal of the Union under O'Connell?

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)

A Bill dealing with the Office of Parliamentary Under Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant will be brought in as soon as practicable; but it is impossible, in the present state of Public Business, to fix a date. My attention has not previously been drawn to the particular incidents referred to in the second and third paragraphs of the Question; but I understand from my right hon. and gallant Friend that the statements are substantially accurate. With regard to the matters of history to which the hon. and learned Member refers, the House is aware that the Orange Society, which was the subject of the Resolution and Treasury Minute mentioned, was dissolved by its own authorities; and that, as explained by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), in reply to a similar Question three years ago, the Society was subsequently re-constituted on an entirely different basis, without secret signs or religious ceremonial. Under successive Governments since those occurrences membership has not been held to be a bar to employment under the Crown; and, in these circumstances, Her Majesty's present Advisers agree with the opinion expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian on the occasion I have already referred to, that— It would not be discreet or considerate on the part of the Government … to carry into execution a Minute which had remained in abeyance for a long time, but which was aimed at the provisions of a certain Society, which provisions had ceased to exist.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)

Is the Bill to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred of such a nature as that it will have to be founded on a Resolution in Committee?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

In all probability that will be the case.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Has the Government made any inquiries to satisfy themselves whether the Orange Society does not still remain a Society with secret signs and symbols; and as to the point of religious faith, has the right hon. Gentleman seen books of the Society which show that members were expelled for marrying a Catholic—such as So-and-so for marrying a Papist?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I did not say anything about religious faith; but I spoke about religious rites.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government of Lord Palmerston, in 1855, did, as a matter of fact, issue a Circular to the Lord Chancellor not to permit any Orangeman to become a magistrate, and stating they would not make Orangemen magistrates in future?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I do not think it necessary to go behind the declaration of policy made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian, to which I have referred.