§ (Sir John Gorst, Mr. Jackson.)
§ [BILL 267.] CONSIDERATION.
§ Order for Consideration, as amended, read.
624§ MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)I beg to move, Sir, that, considering the circumstances of this measure, the Bill should be re-committed. I observe that there are on the Notice Paper five very substantial Amendments, and it would seem, so far as I am able to judge, that a great many of them are of very considerable length. Many of the Amendments also are new, and will require careful consideration. I do think that it must appear to the Government a very fair thing, after the considerable rapidity with which the measure has been advanced, to re-commit the Bill, and amend it to-night, and report it as amended to-morrow night.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be re-committed."—(Mr. Chance.)
§ THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Sir JOHN GORST) (Chatham)I hope the hon. Member (Mr. Chance) will not deny that the Amendments are of such a character as that they may be readily dealt with. I do not think that there will be any great advantage derived from re-committing the Bill, and I would appeal to the hon. Member that, in the face of the circumstances, it would be but a quite reasonable thing to allow the Bill to proceed.
§ MR. CHANCEI find, Sir, that it will be necessary to make other Amendments, and I really believe that it would not only be easier, but tending to greater rapidity in advancing the Bill should it be re-committed.
§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)I think, Sir, that the Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst) will remember that he got us to compromise at 4 o'clock in the morning, and I believe he should now recognize that we have some claim on him, after he has got his clause. I would appeal to him that he should see his way to grant our most necessary and most modest request.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Bill re-committed; considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clause 1 (Short title) agreed to.
§ Clause 2 (Power of trustees, &c, in relation to exchange of stock).
§ Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 28, to leave out from "the consent of such person" to "Court of Session" in 625 page 2, line 4, and insert "such consent."
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)I am afraid, Sir, that if this alteration be made, that the clause will not read. I commend the fact to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
On the Motion of Sir John GORST, the following Amendments made:—
In page 2, line 8, after "interested in the Stock or," insert "when any such person is an infant or a person of unsound mind the consent of his guardian or guardians or of the committee of his estate or curator bonis (as the case may be) or the consent; "in line 11, after" in pursuance of this section," insert "and when the holder in a joint account is an infant, or a person of unsound mind, or is under any other disability, or is beyond the seas, the other holders or holder may, with the consent of a Judge of the High Court of Justice in England and Ireland, or in Scotland of a Judge of the Court of Session, exchange in pursuance of this section such Stock or any part thereof for India Three and a-half Per Cent Stock.
And when the holder is an infant or person of unsound mind his guardian or guardians, or the committee of his estate, or the curator bonis (as the case may be), may exchange in pursuance of this section such Stock or any part thereof for India Three and a-half Per Cent Stock.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining Clauses agreed to.
§
New Clause—
(Power to exchange stock up to £1,000 value standing in name of infant or of person of unsound mind.)
Where the holder of Stock of less than one thousand pounds nominal value is an infant or a person of unsound mind, and no steps are taken on or before the tenth day of October one thousand eight hundred and eighty-seven for the exchange of such Stock for India Three and a-half Per Cent Stock, such exchange shall be made notwithstanding that no consent may have been given by the guardian or guardians, trustee or trustees of such infant, or by the committee of the estate or custos bonis (as the case may be) of such person of unsound mind,"—(Mr. Kelly,)
—brought up, and read the first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
SIR, JOHN GORSTWhat I have to say to this clause is, that though the Government would not have presumed to move such a clause, yet, if it is the general sense of the Committee that it 626 should be inserted, the Government will raise no objection to it. No doubt, at the present time, 3½ per cent Stock and 4 per cent Stock are practically of equal value; and by this clause, if the House should think fit to add it to the Bill, these persons will have the exchange effected without any expense or trouble on their part, or on the part of those who represent them. Although the Government did not think it right for them to move the clause, neither do they feel called upon to oppose it.
§ MR. CHANCEA necessity arises for the clause, because under the Bill as it stands the holder of Stock in whose name the Stock stands, as representative of an infant or a person of unsound mind, is bound to make application to a Judge of the High Court, for an order that shall entitle the Bank to change the 4 per cent Stock into 3½ per cent Stock. This will be an expensive affair for a small income. If such application is not made, then, according to the Bill as its stands, the Stock will be paid off on October 10, 1888, and the guardians or trustees will have to make application for a re-investment of the capital. Nothing could be done previously, and the unfortunate holders of the Stock, who have not power to vary their investment, would lose probably a year's dividend and perhaps more. Now this clause says that, unless anybody takes an objection, without any expense, the 4 per cent Stock shall be converted into 3½ per cent. It does not compel a guardian to take the new Stock because he can take measures, if he chooses, to invest the capital in another way, but it gives him the option of getting the benefit of the conversion without going to any expense whatever. The clause is limited to holders of less than £1,000 Stock, to save the smaller incomes of £30 or £40 a-year from the expense of transfer. Larger incomes may be left to bear the expense; it is in the interest of poor people with incomes of £30 or £40 a-year this clause is proposed, and who without it would lose certainly half-a-year's dividend on the expenses of an application to the Court. The clause, I think, is wholly unobjectionable in principle.
§ MR. TOMLINSON (Preston)It will be generally allowed, I think, that it is not possible for trustees to obtain any safe investment producing more than 3½ per cent at the present time, 627 and that being so, it appearsto me a very reasonable clause to insert.
§ MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork)I wish to know if the Mover of the clause draws a distinction between "custos bonis" and "curator bonis?"
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.
§ Preamble.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 1, line 13, omit the words "as and for," in order to insert the words "treated as interest so as to make up a sum equal to."—(Sir John Gorst.)
§ Question, "That the words 'as and for' stand part of the Preamble," put, and agreed to.
§ Question, "That the words 'treated as interest so as to make up a sum equal to,' be there inserted, put, and agreed to.
§ Preamble, as amended, agreed to Bill reported.
§ MR. CHANCEI do not know whether, by general consent, the consideration of this Bill can be taken now?
§ MR. SPEAKERIt cannot be taken now; it must be taken on another day. It is a Money Bill.
§ Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.