§ Resolutions [16th May] reported.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ DR. CLARK (Caithness)I beg to move the adjournment of the debate. There are some very important questions that come up under the Motion for Supply, and this is too late an hour for their discussion.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Dr. Clark.)
§ THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)The Resolution which is now before the House has relation to the Army Votes, and upon these I think the hon. Gentleman has no question to raise. I would appeal to him to allow this Resolution to pass, and whatever question he desires to raise can come later.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ DR. CLARKThere were questions left over for discussion upon this Vote early yesterday morning, and I trust the Government will not refuse an opportunity for bringing them forward. I now beg to move the adjournment of the debate.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Dr. Clark.)
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)I hope the hon. Member will not persevere with this Motion. We must resist it, and if, instead of occupying time in a Division, the hon. Member will bring forward the questions he desires to raise, we are quite ready to answer them forthwith.
§ MR. HANDEL COSSHAM (Bristol, E.)I think it is highly inconvenient to discuss questions relating to large expenditure at this hour of the morning.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 58; Noes 105: Majority 47.—(Div. List No, 149.)
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. HANDEL COSSHAMI beg, Sir, to move the adjournment of the debate.
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! The hon. Member cannot do that.
§ MR. COX (Clare, E.)I beg to move the adjournment of the House.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)I beg to second that.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Cox.)
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)I must, Sir, appeal to hon. Members to have regard to the necessities of Supply. It is, of course, quite open to them to do as they are doing; but I would point out that we are prepared to answer any questions they may put relative to these Votes. These Motions are not creditable to hon. Members. If it is desired by hon. 405 Gentlemen to go tome, and if it is desired that you, Sir, and the officers of the House shall have the rest which I am sure the Government admit you need, that object can best be attained by proceeding with the Business, rather than by making dilatory Motions which the Government are bound to oppose.
§ DR. CLARKI rose last night, about 11 o'clock, to move the reduction of the salary of the Scotch Lord Advocate; but another hon. Member caught the eye of the Chairman, and a jump was made from the 14th to the 29th Vote. I called attention to the fact later on, and was told that I could not then raise my Motion, but that I could do it on the Report stage. At a quarter past? I moved to report Progress, in order that the Committee might have time to consider these questions; but the right hon, Gentleman the Leader of the House refused to agree to it. Now, at 3 o'clock in the morning, he offers us time to discuss these matters. But why not take them on Thursday night at 1 o'clock, instead of now? It is the obstinacy of the right hon. Gentleman that refuses it. We want a fair time to bring before the House a serious grievance, and we contend that after 3 o'clock in the morning is not a fair time.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHI want to point out that the hon. Member can attain his object much more efficiently by moving on the Vote itself. That will give him the opportunity he desires.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHI hope it will be very much before that.
§ MR.MURPHY (Dublin, St. Patrick's)I can assure the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House that last night a great many Members, and myself among others, were desirous of bringing forward questions on the Vote of Supply in which we took the very greatest interest; but at the instance of the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), who, though he would hardly get credit for it, urged his colleagues on these Benches not to speak, so that the Vote might be got through last night, we refrained from doing so. I hoped in complying with my hon. Friend's request that I should have an opportunity of speaking on the Report stage. I might point out, in support of our right to a discussion on Report of Supply, that the Government, 406 having taken the whole time of the House, give private Members no opportunity of bringing forward any question whatever affecting their Constituencies. I asked the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, a short time ago, if he would give the House an opportunity of discussing a certain question with reference to Irish affairs before he took any action on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman answered by saying that he had no doubt my ingenuity would find an opportunity for discussing the matter. Well, my ingenuity has not up to this been able to find a single occasion for bringing forward the special matter to which I wished to call attention, and this is the first and only opportunity which has been afforded to me, but which I certainly decline to avail of at 3 o'clock in the morning, as I could not adequately deal with the matter.
§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)I intended to-night, on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House, to rise and call attention to a matter which occurred earlier in the day with regard to a matter of Procedure. I may as well do it now. You will remember, Mr. Speaker, that you allowed the First Lord of the Treasury to make a Motion——
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! It is not competent to the hon. and learned Gentleman to raise that question on this Motion.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYI understood that, on a Motion for Adjournment, any question could be raised. Do you still rule, Sir, that I cannot raise this now.
§ MR. SPEAKERIt is not a question of Order that can now be raised. The matter before the House is the adjournment of the House.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYThen, with regard to the Motion now before the House, the First Lord of the Treasury has said that these Motions are not creditable to the House. But I will point out that it is not creditable to the House to take money by means of this kind of Vote on Account, and it is not creditable to thus try and get £3,000,000 granted at this hour in the morning, and to refuse us a reasonable time to raise questions of importance on the Report stage. I had intended to raise a question with regard to Ireland: but there is, so far as I can see, no Irish Officer in his place. Is it to be supposed 407 we can have an effective discussion on Irish topics under those circumstances? Nobody has the duties of the Department more at his fingers' end than the Chief Secretary. I do not see him here; but, certainly, Ms Assistant the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Thanet is true to the death. I think the Chief Secretary ought to be in his place, especially as he is paid a large salary. It does seem unfair, on the part of the Government, to expect us to go on with the Business at this hour, and at a time when the responsible Officer for Ireland is not in his place. If we raise Irish questions the right hon. Gentleman should be on the spot to answer us.
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! the Question before the House is one of adjournment. The hon. and learned Member must confine himself to that.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYI do think, under the circumstances, we must persevere with this Motion as the Chief Secretary is absent. On a previous occasion, some trouble was experienced in getting him here. Will the Government undertake to send for him, if we raise the Irish question now?
§ MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.)I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, whether or not he is reasonable in objecting to this adjournment? This is not a reasonable hour to go on with the discussion on these Votes. The offer just made by the right hon. Gentleman is simply illusory. He says we shall have an opportunity of raising the questions we wish to when the Votes are taken seriatim in Committee. That simply means some time in the remote future, and if an hon. Member were anxious now to raise a matter of an urgent nature, he might by waiting as suggested destroy all his chances of securing a remedy. These Votes are seldom taken before the 1st of July. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to the Motion for Adjournment. Hon. Members on this side are not extravagant in their demands. They say they will be satisfied if Report is taken at 1 o'clock on Thursday morning; and if the right hon. Gentleman would conform to our wishes in these small matters, and would not fight about trifles, he would get on very much better. It would only be a judicious thing to accede to the Motion, and let us wind 408 up the Business of the night and go home.
§ MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)I would draw attention to the fact that if we pass this Vote, the Government will have obtained rather more than three months' Supply. I notice that Supply commences on the 31st March, and, therefore, they will have got enough to carry them on till the 1st July. I do not intend to go into the matters they hope to get through before that day; but I have no doubt they expect, by that time, an alteration in the position of the Irish Members; that they trust by means to be taken outside the House to deal effectually with them. We have good reason for discussing these matters fully now. When this Vote came on last night, it was after a long debate in which the Military Members had wearied the House, and having spoken one way, voted the other; and we had little or no opportunity of raising the questions we wanted to. There are several matters of great importance to us. For instance, there is the Registrar General's Vote. There is a certain scheme for altering the status of the clerks in his office. It was smuggled through the Law Department at the Castle, but we were promised an opportunity of discussing it here. It would, however, be impossible for us to do it at this hour in the morning. There are many other Votes of a similar character, and it is simply indecent to take them at this period of the Sitting. We ask the First Lord of the Treasury to act reasonably in this matter, and not rush this Vote of £3,000,000 through the House now without discussion. We may never have an opportunity of discussing it, if we do not take it at this stage. You may have got rid of all of us before the Votes are taken in detail, for we may by that time all be locked up in Irish gaols.
§ DR. KENNY (Cork, S.)I appeal to the Government to consent to this, and to give us the opportunity we ask of raising questions of importance to us. The right hon. Gentleman promises us a discussion on a future occasion; but, probably, by that time many of us will not be here.
§ MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork)I join in the protest against taking the Vote at this inconvenient hour, and on a Motion of this character I had intended to move the reduction of the salary of 409 the Attorney General for Ireland, on account of his action in a prosecution in which it was alleged that the Irish police had very seriously misconducted themselves. There is, too, another matter to which I wished to direct the attention of the Government. But it is practically impossible to do it at the time at which the First Lord of the Treasury wishes to discuss these matters. I refer, Sir, to the failure of the Government to appoint a Judge to the Common Pleas Division, although two months ago they urged it was of great importance to do so. This is a very important matter. It is ridiculous to ask us to go into these discussions at half-past 3 in the morning. The Government should remember that a very short ago they came down to this House, with proposals to enact a permanent Rule prohibiting this House sitting after midnight, and having thus expressed their view as to the hour at which discussions should take place. I do think it is a little audacious on their part to expect us to vote enormous sums on account at this hour in the morning. I trust that the Government will not persist in their intention of insisting on this Vote. There are important points on which we want information, and we ought to have some opportunity of discussing them. The Government should take into consideration, the fact that they have had all the time of the House since the beginning of the Session, and have prevented private Members from bringing before the House various subjects.
§ MR. EDWARD HARRINGTON (Kerry, W.)I am surprised at the attitude of the Government in trying to force us to grant £3,000,000 of money at this hour in the morning. They seem to altogether ignore appeals from this side of the House, and when I say appeals, I only mean the word in the sense that we are claiming our right to an opportunity of discussing these questions. It is all very well to get up and say you can talk now, and we will answer you. But that is not enough. Hon. Members below me want to bring before the House some grievances which might or might not occupy a few minutes; but hon. Members, when they do that, are anxious to do it at a time when their remarks will get into the public Press. We have no personal advantage in that; but we do hold that 410 the discussion should take place at an hour at which it is possible for our grievances, and the Minister's reply to us, to be reported. We cannot hope to do much against the majority in this House, but we do wish to try and exercise some moral influence on public opinion outside. I do think it unreasonable, after the many hours we have been in attendance in this House, to ask us, at half-past 3 in the morning, to go on with this Vote, especially as we have to meet here again at 12 o'clock to-day. The right hon. Gentleman might as well be graceful for once—I do not mean for once in his lifetime, but graceful for once towards the Irish Members—and give up his stubborn attitude.
§ MR. O'HANLON (Cavan, E.)I rise to join in the appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury. There are many subjects for discussion arising out of this £3,000,000 Vote, and, surely, this is not an hour at which we can be expected to transact Business of such importance. Let the right hon. Gentleman look at his own supporters, and see if his lieutenants are in a fit condition to enter into these matters. It would be a disgrace if, in the present state of the House, we voted away £3,000,000 of money. I think most of the Members of the House have already gone to their homes, and those left are quite ready for their beds; and I confess I do not think we are prepared now to give sufficient consideration to a Vote of this sort. It is time the House adjourned.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 55; Noes 103: Majority 48.—(Div. List, No. 150.)
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)Will the Government now send for the Chief Secretary, in order that we may resume the debate upon Irish matters? It will, no doubt, be easy to find him; and if the Government will assure us that the right hon. Gentleman will shortly be in his place, prepared, as we are, to go on with Business. I will withdraw the Motion, which I now make, that this debate be adjourned.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)It is not my intention to 411 prolong this contest. Sir, I have some consideration for your health, and for the officers of the House. But I must make an emphatic protest against this deliberate waste of the time of the House. Reference has been made to the opinion of the country upon the conduct of Business. Yes, Sir, the country will form its judgment upon the action of hon. Members below the Gangway, when we protest against this constant delay in the conduct of the Business of the House, to the detriment of every interest in the country. I consent to the adjournment.
§ MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.)The right hon. Gentleman tells us the public will judge. I do not know if he realizes the issue which is placed before the country. It is, whether a discussion of a Vote of nearly £4,000,000 can be properly carried on between 3 and 4 in the morning. I think, upon that question, the country will decide that the Opposition is right, and the Government wrong.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Debate adjourned till Thursday,