HC Deb 31 March 1887 vol 313 cc79-82
MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Is it intended that the Criminal Law Amendment (Ireland) Bill shall not become operative unless a Purchase Bill becomes Law, and can he give the number of prosecutions in each of the following cases:— Out of six cases of murder there was one conviction; out of 16 cases of firing at the person there was one conviction; out of 21 cases of burglary there were four convictions; out of 43 cases of firing at dwellings there was no conviction; out of 73 cases of maiming cattle there was no conviction?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN,) St. George's, Hanover Square

The Criminal Law Amendment (Ireland) Bill will become operative as soon as it has received the sanction of Parliament. The Government do not propose to tie the two measures mentioned together; but it will be an immense satisfaction to Her Majesty's Government if they are able to pass the Land Purchase Bill this Session, as well as the Criminal Law Amendment Bill. With regard to the statistics about which the hon. and learned Member inquires, I cannot state the number of prosecutions in each case; but I presume the hon. and learned Member will be satisfied if I name the number of cases in which offenders were made amenable, that being the ordinary form in which Returns are presented to Parliament.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Returned for trial before a jury is the point of my Question.

MR. GOSCHEN

The ordinary form in which the statistics have been presented to Parliament, if I am not mistaken, is a tabular form giving, first, the number of offences; secondly, the number made amenable; and, thirdly, the number of convictions obtained.

MR. T. M. HEALY

That is not the point. The right hon. Gentleman stated in his speech that juries had failed to convict in certain cases, and I want to know how many of these cases were brought before juries?

MR. GOSCHEN

I will give the number of cases in which they were made amenable.

MR. T. M. HEALY

What we understand by "being made amenable" is being arraigned.

MR. GOSCHEN

I will present the figures as they have been, previously given to Parliament. There are two difficulties with which the Government have to deal—the difficulty of getting evidence, and the difficulty of obtaining convictions upon evidence. The clause of the Government Bill with regard to a preliminary inquiry, without any specific person being charged with crime, is intended to deal with that part of the difficulty which consists in getting evidence; and there are other clauses of the Bill directed to the same object. These are the figures: Out of the six eases of murder, there were three in which no evidence at all could be obtained in order to make a person amenable. There were three in which persons were made amenable, and one in which a conviction was obtained. In the 16 cases of firing at the person, there were seven in which persons were made amenable, and in one case a conviction was obtained. In the 21 cases of burglary, there were eight in which persons were made amenable, and four in which convictions were obtained. In the 43 cases of firing into dwelling-houses, there were five in which persons were made amenable, and no convictions were obtained; and out of the 73 cases of that detestable crime, the maiming of cattle, there were only two in which persons could be made amenable, and no one was convicted. No evidence could be obtained with regard to those crimes. The upshot of the whole is that out of the 159 crimes of a most serious character, there were only 25 in which any person could be made amenable, and only six in which convictions could be obtained; so that there are 24 chances to one in favour of the escape of a criminal in a case of agrarian outrage.

MR. T. C. HARRINGTON (Dublin, Harbour)

asked, whether it was not the fact that in some of those cases which were given as cases in which a conviction could not be obtained the prisoners were still in custody, and that trials in many cases were still pending?

MR. GOSCHEN

I cannot answer that question without inquiry. The Return has already been laid on the Table of the House, and hon. Members will be able to examine it for themselves. I have dealt with the figures as they have always been presented to the House.

MR. T. M. HEALY

asked, whether the right hon. Gentleman would have any objection to give the number of prisoners arraigned, and the number of convictions?

MR. GOSCHEN

That is a question for the Chief Secretary for Ireland. I have dealt fairly with the figures as they have been previously presented to the House.

MR. T. M. HEALY

then put his question to the Chief Secretary.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)

I will make inquiry.

MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Camborne)

Arising out of this subject, may I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is not a principle of the English law that every man accused of crime shall be deemed innocent until he is proved guilty; and, if so, by what right—

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order!Mr. Hanbury. [Laughter.]