HC Deb 03 March 1887 vol 311 cc1224-6

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon certain charges, brought under the notice of this House by Mr. Howell, Member for the North-East Division of Bethnal Green, and Mr. Bradlaugh, Member for the Borough of Northampton, alleging improper use and malversation of public funds of the Corporation of London, by or with the consent of members and officials of such Corporation."—(Mr. Howell.)

SIR ROBERT FOWLER (London)

I do not rise to oppose this Motion; on the contrary, I welcome it; but I do wish to put distinctly before the House the circumstances of the case. In the first place, the Corporation have courted this inquiry; while the Municipal Beform League, as represented by the lion. Member for Barrow (Mr. Caine), have shrunk from it. I wish, further, to impress upon the House what are the personal accusations charged against myself. The hon. Member (Mr. Bradlaugh) pledges himself to prove that the Lord Mayor in 1884, who happened to be myself, personally spent money for certain corrupt purposes. That is—I do not say what the hon. Member for Bethnal Green said—but that is what the hon. Member for Northampton, who is joined with him in this Motion, stated. That is the charge brought before the House; and I think, when the Committee is struck, as the charge involves the honour of a Member of this House, that the Committee should investigate this charge before they go into the question of the acts of Mr. Johnson, or Mr. Peters, or anyone else. That is the charge made by the hon. Members; and if they fail to prove that charge, I may leave the House to judge how much attention should be paid to the remainder.

MR.HOWELL (Bethnal Green,N.E)

I beg to point out that I have nothing whatever to do with the charges made by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh). My statement was perfectly clear and distinct. I undertook to bring the matter before the House, and the Motion I propose is with reference to the statement I made. I made no personal charge against the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Robert Fowler), I distinctly disavowed that. I wish distinctly to point out that the charge brought by me I mean to substantiate absolutely; but I object altogether to the Committee placing me in the position of having to substantiate charges made by the hon. Member for Northampton. That is a matter for the hon. Member for Northampton to undertake and justify when I have justified the statement I brought before the House. I deny the right of the hon. Gentleman the Member for London to dictate to the Committee the form in which the Committee should carry out its proceedings. Under ordinary circumstances, the Committee would take the charges brought by myself with regard to the expenditure of public money; it is not a charge brought by me against the hon. Gentleman or any hon. Member of this House. I was clear, definite, and distinct in this respect. I told the hon. Gentleman personally, before I brought the matter before the House, the precise line I should take. I took that line, and I do not waver from it one iota. I think, under ordinary circumstances, that the course adopted should be quite contrary to that indicated by the hon. Gentleman. The first things to be substantiated are the charges made by me. Then, after I have fastened these charges on the Corporation officials, will be the time for the hon. Member for Northampton to prefer and justify the charges he has made.

MR. BEADLAUGH (Northampton)

I prefer to adhere to my own charge made the day before yesterday, and not to accept the charge in the form the hon. Gentleman (Sir Robert Fowler) has chosen to substitute. My charge was a specific one. I undertook to prove that large sums of money—of public money—have been issued under circumstances which compelled on the part of the hon. Gentleman knowledge of its being improperly used to influence this House. I did not make the charge the hon. Gentleman has put into my mouth to-night; the one I have made I will prove up to the hilt.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they do take evidence on oath.

Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.—(Mr. Howell.)