CLASS IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART. (Hansard, 3 March 1887)

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)
I must appeal to the Committee to consider the position in which we are placed. We have a certain number of Votes to get through, and that must be got through by Monday night at the latest. We may report Progress now, but only on the distinct understanding that the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates must be disposed of on Monday night. I venture to appeal to the Committee to take such Votes as will not detain us now, so that 1220 time will be left free for Monday's discussion. I am only saying what is necessary for the exigencies of the Public Service, when I say the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates must be disposed of by Monday night.

§ MR. JAMES STUART (Shoreditoh, Hoxton)
I think the discussion of the Science and Art Vote need not occupy much time; and I think, perhaps, it would be as well if the right hon. Gentleman adhered to the arrangement for taking Votes in order, inasmuch as if these Votes can be passed without discussion they will as readily be disposed of on Monday as now, and there would be an advantage to Members who have left the House and who are interested in the question to be raised.

§ MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)
The Diplomatic Votes must take a long discussion. It might be convenient, perhaps, to take those Votes to which here are no objections.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
Perhaps the hon. Member for Shoreditch will proceed with his observations now?

§ MR. JAMES STUART
No, Sir; What may have to be said on the Science and Art Vote, which is a very important matter, and one on which many Members have waited their opportunity for a long time, had better be said at an earlier period of the Sitting. My contention is not at all of an obstructive tendency, and the Government must see we are not unreasonable, seeing that we have now no opportunity for raising discussion upon matters of special interest, except upon Votes in Supply. It is desirable that the points we desire to raise should be under the consideration of the Government before the Education Estimates come on.

§ DR. TANNER (Cork CO., Mid)
Upon Class V. there are, I know, a certain number of Members who desire to speak. I should suggest that the matters here should be postponed with the other Business.

§ MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Camborne)
With reference to what has been said about proceeding with other Votes, I am firmly opposed to taking the Votes out of their order. It is unfair to Members who are absent.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
I undertook to agree just now to reporting Progress, on the distinct understanding that the whole of the Supplementary Civil Ser- 1221 vice Estimates must be voted in Committee on Monday.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)
We give no undertaking.

MR. ILLING WORTH (Bradford, W.)
I do not understand on what ground the right hon. Gentleman appeals to the Committee. We are not at the end of the Session.

§ SIR RICHARD PAGET
I rise to Order. What, Sir, is the Question before the Committee?

§ MR. ILLINGWORTH
The attempt of the right hon. Gentleman to put pressure on the Committee is altogether unwarranted. We are merely at the beginning of a long Session of Parliament, and it is not the fault of anyone on this side of the House that we are driven into these corners—that we have only another day to discuss these Estimates. The right hon. Gentleman has the arrangement of Business, and it is for the pleasure of the Government, not for the convenience of the House, that a particular arrangement has been followed. It is an unprecedented step that the right hon. Gentleman desires us to take, in proceeding with the Estimates after we have spent the whole afternoon and night in the discussion. On the particular Vote standing next, I venture to say the views of my hon. Friend must carry weight. The Science and Art Vote is of interest to the whole of the United Kingdom; and how is it possible, with justice to those who feel that interest, to make speeches when they cannot be reported, and practically to give a silent vote with no discussion. I am not prepared to pass the Vote in silence. It would be infinitely better to rely on a whole night's discussion on Monday, rather than go on now. We might take Votes to-morrow, or even on Saturday, if necessary; but it is most unreasonable to ask hon. Members to enter on this question at this hour in the morning.

§ MR. PARNELL (Cork)
The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) has explained to the Committee that the Government are in a difficulty as to the progress of Supply, and that it is necessary for the service of the country that the rest of the Supplementary Civil Service Estimates should be voted by Monday night. Well, that is not the fault of the Committee; probably, if he had adopted the ordinary course always adopted by Governments, of taking these 1222 Supplementary Estimates at an early period of the Session, so as to insure that they shall be carried through within the time required by law, the difficulty would not have arisen. The time, consequently, is very short; but he cannot accuse the Committee of having wasted time, or delayed Business. Seldom, in late years, have the Supplementary Civil Service Estimates been voted in a fewer number of Sittings. This is the second Sitting on which the Estimates have been taken, and usually, in previous Sessions, they have occupied five or six Sittings. The right hon. Gentleman has freely enough explained that he is pressed for time, and he is asking the Committee to come to an agreement that the Estimates shall be passed by Monday. Will he, on his side, give the Committee those facilities which it is in his power to give for the discussion of these Estimates, by putting down Supply for to-morrow night? If the right hon. Gentleman declines to do that, then I do not think he has established his claim, when he has Friday, usually a Supply night, at his disposal. I do not think he has established his claim to ask us to go on at half-past 2 with Votes in Supply. I put this to the right hon. Gentleman, as a reasonable man, whether he comes before the Committee on an equal footing, in asking them to continue a discussion at half-past 2 after 10½ hours' work, when he refuses to give the Committee facilities for discussion which it is in his power to give? Surely, if it is of such importance to get these Estimates by the close of Monday's Sitting, the right hon. Gentleman would be justified in allocating to-morrow to Supply. He might fear that he might not make Progress tomorrow. He might suppose that Supply would be blocked by Motions on going into Committee. Well, all I can say is, speaking for myself and my Colleagues, we will undertake not to put down Notices of Motion against his going into Supply to-morrow. This is a fair proposal. Let me put it in another way. The right hon. Gentleman asks for an understanding from the Committee that this class of Supply shall close on Monday. Well, suppose we give him this undertaking, on condition that he gives to-morrow night for Supply. He would be equally guarded in that way against having to-morrow devoted to 1223 other purposes than Supply, such as Motions. I have suggested to him the possibility of obtaining two guarantees. I give him, on behalf of our Party, an assurance that we will not bring forward Motions to-morrow if he sets down Supply. We will agree for ourselves—and, no doubt, other sections of the House will agree—if these facilities are given, under the circumstances, and in view of the fact that it is not the fault of the Committee. He might fairly give to-morrow for Supply, and if Supply finishes, then he can go on with other Business on Monday.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
I do, Sir, wish to be understood as a reasonable man; but it would be utterly unreasonable to adopt the proposal of the hon. Gentleman. In our judgment, it is necessary to proceed with the Business we have set down for to-morrow; it is most urgent. The hon. Member is also aware that though he might, for himself and his Friends, undertake that no Motions should be moved to Supply tomorrow, if that is taken instead of the Rules of Procedure, he must be aware that such an arrangement would not be binding upon other hon. Gentlemen. The discussion of these Supplementary Civil Service Estimates has been much longer than usual. I have had experience and knowledge of facts and figures to sustain my assertion. I might urge another point to shorten present discussion—that is, that for every subject proposed to be raised, an equal opportunity would be afforded by the Votes in ordinary Supply. I must press to have the Supplementary Civil Service Estimates completed by Monday, and I trust the Committee will undertake to do this. I assent now to reporting Progress.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)
What the right hon. Gentleman has said is perfectly true; my hon. Friend (Mr. Parnell) can answer only for his immediate followers—not for other Members of the Opposition. It is impossible to prevent any Member from putting down an Amendment to the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair; and does that not show the absolute futility of a proposal that we should enter into an undertaking for Monday? These understandings are absolutely futile, and cannot bind men not now present. If the right hon. Gentleman desires to earn 1224 the character of a reasonable man, he should give the Committee the reasons why it is necessary these Votes should be passed on Monday night. I am under the impression that several nights later would admit of ample time for the Appropriation Bill to go through all its stages in both Houses.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
Besides the Civil Service Estimates, there are the Army and Navy Estimates and the Army and Navy Supplementary Estimates to pass before the close of the financial year.

§ MR. PARNELL
I may point out the position in which we are, and the concession the right hon. Gentleman is refusing. He has taken advantage of the shortness of time left to deprive us of what we ask for—a discussion on Friday. He says it is necessary to take the Rules of Procedure to-morrow. I do not see why that necessity exists, or how the right hon. Gentleman makes out his contention. Under the Resolution of the House by which these Rules are set down from day to day, it is possible for the right hon. Gentleman to set them down or not, as he pleases. It seems to me he is rather anxious to proceed with two things at the same time, making equal progress with both: but he had better beware of the fate of that man who tried to do too many things at the same time.