HC Deb 09 June 1887 vol 315 cc1560-1

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House will, To-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of any allowances that may be made, and Expenses that may be incurred, under the provisions of any Act of the present Session to make better provision for the prevention and punishment of Crime in Ireland, and for other purposes relating thereto" (Queen''s Recommendation signified).—(Mr. Jackson.)

MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

May I, upon this Motion, ask the Government to give me a distinct answer to a question I raised earlier without getting an answer? This is a Resolution upon which to found a Committee, and to that extent it is a matter of form, but it is one upon which I may put the question again; and that is, do you expect a prisoner to pay all his expenses for the transfer of his counsel and witnesses? The travelling expenses from Dublin to England are less than the expenses of travelling from Cork to the Giant's Causeway, and it is only a fair thing that if a prisoner is removed for trial to such a distance these expenses should be defrayed for him. Before we allow a Committee to be formed to make provision for the payment of useless fees for motions for cause we should know whether the expenses of counsel and witnesses in the case of a prisoner torn from his friends by a change of venue will be paid.


Under this clause the same course as regards expenses will be followed as in a similar clause in the Act of 1882. The hon. and learned Member is probably aware that in that case the expenses of counsel were paid when the change of venue necessitated any extra or additional expense by reason of the change. The hon. and learned Member will see that it would not be fair to the taxpayers to impose on them the payment of counsel in all cases where there is a change of place of trial. For instance, take the case of a change of venue from Cork to Dublin, the services of the very same counsel would probably be available more readily than if the proceedings went on in Cork. That will be done which was done in the Act of 1882—namely, that when by a change of venue charges are incurred by the prisoner or accused for extra expenses to obtain the services of counsel, those expenses will be paid; and of course the expenses of witnesses, where there is a change of venue, will also be paid.


The right hon. and learned Attorney General for Ireland has not answered the question; he has mentioned a change from Cork to Belfast. Of course, in Dublin the same counsel would act, for there is the Central Law Courts. But suppose the change of venue is to some other circuit; then the prisoner could not employ the same counsel without the payment of special fees. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman answer that?


If we do not get an answer we shall divide.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 111; Noes 48: Majority 63.—(Div. List, No. 213.)

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Three o'clock.

Back to