§ MR. HOULDSWORTH (Manchester, N. W.)I beg to move—
That the Standing Orders be suspended, and that leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable the Manchester Ship Canal Company to raise a portion of their capital by means of preference shares, and that Mr. Houldsworth, Mr. Jacob Bright, Sir James Fergusson, Sir Henry Roscoe, the Honourable Alan de Tatton Egerton, Mr. Addison, and Mr. Elliott Lees do prepare and bring it in.
§ MR. WHITLEY (Liverpool, Everton)I object to the Motion.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThis is not a stage of a Bill, as the hon. Gentleman will perceive; but it is only a Motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders. When the Question is put, the hon. Member can take any action in regard to it which he thinks proper, but he cannot secure the postponement of the Motion by simply objecting to it.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Standing Orders be suspended, and that leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable the Manchester Ship Canal Company to raise a portion of their capital by moans of preference shares, and that Mr. Houldsworth, Mr. Jacob Bright, Sir James Fergusson, Sir Henry Roscoe, the Honourable Alan de Tatton Egerton, Mr. Addison, and Mr. Elliott Lees do prepare and bring it in."—(Mr. Houldsworth.)
§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)Perhaps some Member of Her Majesty's Government will make a statement to the House in regard to this very important matter. I presume that the object of the Bill is to enable interest to be paid out of capital.
§ MR. HOULDSWORTHThe Motion which I have ventured to propose is one of a very simple character, and I think I can, in a very few words, place the House in full possession of the facts of the case. The House will be aware that the Manchester Ship Canal Bill was passed by Parliament two years ago for the construction of an important undertaking which is considered of vital importance to the interests of Lancashire. During that time efforts had been made to raise the necessary capital, and I am not here to-day to say to the House that those efforts have in the slighest degree been unsuccessful. On the contrary, I am in a position to say that very nearly 1347 £4,000,000 have been subscribed in Lancashire alone, out of the £8,000,000 of the share capital that is required for this undertaking. I may remind the House that this is a very large undertaking, involving a sum of not less than £10,000,000, of which £8,000,000 are to be share capital, and £2,000,000 borrowed capital.
§ THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. COURTNEY) (Cornwall, Bodmin)I am unwilling to interrupt the hon. Member, but, perhaps, he will allow me to make a suggestion, which I think will save the time of the House, and will only involve a very short statement from mo. I see that there are three Motions down on the Paper in reference to this Bill in the name of the hon. Member. The first is for the suspension of the Standing Orders, in order to enable the Bill to be brought in. The second is for the suspension of further Standing Orders, so that a Motion may be made "that the Bill be now read a first time;" and the third is a Motion for the second reading of the Bill. Now, the first and second of these stages may be taken today without provoking much discussion; but the third stage cannot be taken if any Member objects to it, and must of necessity go over until to-morrow. No doubt, when that Motion is made, there will be a discussion upon it, and therefore I think it may be for the convenience of the House to agree to the present Motion, and to permit the first and second stages of the Bill to be taken, on the understanding that the discussion upon the whole merits of the Bill will be taken on the Motion to read the Bill a second time. The Motion to suspend the Standing Orders in order to enable the Bill to be brought in is in itself a matter of some importance; but I think the first and second Motions may be agreed to, in order to save the time of the House. The discussion, which I presume will relate to the financial condition of the concern, can be fittingly taken on the proposal to read the Bill a second time.
§ MR. HOULDSWORTHI am perfectly ready to assent to the course proposed by the hon. Member being taken.
MR. SINCLAIR&c.) (Falkirk,Before that proposal is accepted by the House, I should like to say a word or two. I think that the proposal made by the Chairman of Ways and Means 1348 is not, under the circumstances, an unreasonable one—namely, that the first and second Motions which stand in the name of the hon. Member for North-West Manchester (Mr. Houldsworth) should be adopted now; but I would suggest that, instead of the discussion being taken to-morrow upon the Motion for the second reading of the Bill, it should be postponed for at least a week, because this is the very first occasion on which these three Notices have appeared on the Paper at all. Personally, I knew nothing of them until, by mere accident, I discovered them when I opened my Parliamentary Papers this morning. Many hon. Members who are interested in the question knew nothing about this Bill, and I think it is desirable that ample time should be afforded for considering it. Therefore, I hope the House, while adopting the suggestion of the Chairman of Ways and Means, will modify it to this extent, that it will adjourn Motion No. 4 for the second reading for a week.
§ MR. JACOB BRIGHT (Manchester, S.W.)I hope the House will consent to the suggestion which has been made by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Courtney). The only motive for pressing this Bill forward rapidly is that the promoters have almost no time left at their disposal. It is absolutely necessary for them to raise the whole of their capital before the 5th of August, or the whole scheme will collapse. They see their way to raising it, if they can obtain the powers proposed to be given by this Bill, and the whole matter will then be settled. If, however, the discussion on the second reading is postponed for a week, it will very much imperil the success of the scheme.
§ THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Baron H. DE WORMS) (Liverpool, East Toxteth)I think it would be for the convenience of the House that a measure of this importance should be postponed from to-day until this day week. I express no opinion with regard to the merits of the Bill itself; but I may point out to the hon. Member for North-West Manchester (Mr. Houldsworth) that the Board of Trade have had no notice whatever that the Bill was coming on, and as it involves questions of enormous importance, I cannot consent to any arrangement to rush a mat- 1349 ter of such great magnitude through the House without Notice.
§ MR. WHITLEYThe proposal now made by my hon. Friend (Mr. Houldsworth) on behalf of the promoters of this Bill is one of the most serious which can occupy the attention of this House. My hon. Friend proposes, by the Bill, to enable the Manchester Ship Canal Company to raise a portion of their capital by means of preference shares upon the undertaking which has already received the sanction of Parliament. I will remind the House that when the Company introduced their measure originally, they failed to carry it, and when it was subsequently submitted to a Select Committee, the Committee made it a condition upon which the consent of Parliament should be given to the Bill, that the Company should raise £5,000,000 of capital before commencing their works. At the present moment, according to a statement contained in a paper which I hold in my hand, the Company have only raised £3,000,000, and they now propose to alter the whole of the conditions which were made with them by the Committee when they granted the Bill. They propose, in fact, to raise a portion of their capital by preference shares in connection with an undertaking in regard to which the original capital has not been subscribed. Now, I venture to think that such a proposition was never before made to this House, and I think it is one which really requires a great deal of serious consideration before the House consents to sanction so new and so important a principle, and to suspend the Standing Orders in a way that has never been previously proposed. The undertaking given by the Company when they obtained their Bill was that they would raise a capital of £5,000,000 in advance before they proceeded to commence their works, and power was given to them to pay interest out of capital while the works were in course of construction. Not content with that privilege, they are now seeking to introduce a new principle, and one which must be regarded as even more objectionable, and that is the principle of raising money by means of preference stock upon an engagement to pay interest out of the original capital. I do think that this is a very serious matter. 1350 My hon. Friend asks the House to suspend its Standing Orders in order to enable this Bill to be brought in, and if that proposal is assented to, the effect will be to take away from the Standing Order Committee their power and duty of expressing an opinion upon the measure. I certainly cannot help thinking that this House, without possessing the slightest knowledge whatever of the matter, should not be asked to suspend the whole of its Standing Orders. It is a very dangerous principle which my hon. Friend proposes to introduce. I, therefore, feel it a sense of duty to move the rejection of the proposition which has been made by my hon. Friend.
§ MR. SPEAKERIt is not necessary to move the rejection of the Motion. The question is—"That the Standing Orders be suspended," and that Motion may be met by a negative.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYI feel it right to say that, although I asked some Member of the Government to make a statement in reference to the matter, I take no objection to the proposal.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That the Standing Orders be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the first time,"—(Mr. Houldsworth.)—put, and agreed to.
§ Bill read the first time.
§ MR. HOULDSWORTH (Manchester, N. W.)I now beg to move—"That Standing Orders 62, 204, 223, and 235 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read a second time." I am very anxious to proceed with the Bill as rapidly as possible; but I have no objection to the proposal of the Chairman of Ways and Means that the discussion on the Motion for the second reading should be taken to-morrow.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Standing Orders 62, 204, 223, and 235 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Houldsworth.)
§ THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. COURTNEY) (Cornwall, Bodmin)If the Motion for the second reading is objected to by any hon. Member it must of necessity stand over.
§ MR. HOULDSWORTHThe suggestion made by the hon. Member was that 1351 it should stand over until to-morrow; and, although I should have preferred to take the second reading now, I will make no objection to that course being adopted. Another suggestion has, however, been made by the Secretary to the Board of Trade—namely, that the second reading be postponed until this day week. I shall be perfectly ready to accept a compromise, and postpone the Motion until Monday. It is of the utmost importance to make rapid progress with the Bill. I believe the matter stands in this position—That the whole capital for this important undertaking can be raised if we pass the Bill within the next two or three weeks. If it is postponed beyond that time, and the powers of the promoters should lapse, the whole of the enormous expenditure which has been incurred in getting the Bill through Parliament will be entirely thrown away. I should, therefore, be glad to make this compromise. I have no wish in any way to take the House by surprise; and if the promoters had not been driven into a corner it would not have been necessary to press forward this Bill.
§ MR. JOHN MORLEY (Newcastle-upon-Tyne)I think that the compromise suggested by the hon. Member for North-West Manchester is a perfectly reasonable one. I know it is possible that the right hon. Gentleman opposite may object to the time of the House being consumed on Monday in a discussion upon a Private Bill, but I am informed by those who ought to know, that the time likely to be occupied in this business will not be very long. If a further delay is insisted upon, it may be fatal to the Bill, and, therefore, I hope the Government will consent to the course proposed by the hon. Member.
§ BARON HENRY DE WORMSI have no wish to offer any factious opposition to the measure; but the matter is one of very great importance, not only to the House, but to the Department with which I am immediately concerned. The Board of Trade has never been consulted at all in regard to the Bill. The first notice I had was when I saw this morning the three Motions of the hon. Member for North-West Manchester on the Paper. No notice whatever had previously been given to the Board of Trade. I might have met the hon. Mem- 1352 ber's proposals by moving that the Bill be referred to the Examiners, or to the Standing Order Committee. I do not wish to act in any unreasonable way; but I think that it is only fair to ask for a week's time in order that both the Government and the House may take this very important measure into consideration. Under these circumstances, I do not think that I ought to consent to the compromise proposed by the hon. Member.
§ MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)I trust that the Government will accept the proposal to take the second reading on Monday. The Government themselves admit the importance of the measure, but its importance rests upon the financial arrangements proposed; and, seeing that even a few days delay may imperil the whole scheme, and that it may be equally satisfactorily dealt with on Monday as on Wednesday, I trust the Secretary to the Board of Trade will give way.
§ BARON HENRY DE WORMSWith the indulgence of the House, I will say that, on the clear and distinct understanding that the discussion upon the Bill will not occupy a long time on Monday, the Government will consent to its being taken on that day.
§ Debate adjourned till Monday next.