HC Deb 07 June 1887 vol 315 cc1340-4

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 11 (Debtors' Act, 1869, to apply in certain cases).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER) (Isle of Wight)

When this Bill was first submitted to me I had not sufficiently considered the provisions of this clause. Since then I have had the opportunity of doing so, and, on the whole, I think the proposed alteration of the law is too severe, and, therefore, that this clause must be omitted. It depends upon the non-registration of a deed, and, in my opinion, it is too severe a step to make it a criminal offence when credit is obtained simply because some legal step has been omitted; and I therefore beg to move the omission of the clause.

Amendment proposed, to leave out Clause 11.—(Mr. Attorney General.)

MR. MUNDELLA (Sheffield, Brightside)

The proposition may be too severe—I do not venture to say it is not; but does the hon. and learned Attorney General mean there is to be no penalty whatever for obtaining credit after a man has passed away his property by a deed? [Sir RICHARD WEBSTER: Not registered.] Not registered! but he has got rid of his property and business, and obtains credit by what is practically a fraud. It was to prevent the obtaining credit in this way that the clause was allowed to be introduced in this form. All the Chambers of Commerce attach some weight to it; and, therefore, to omit the clause altogether and put in no other I think is rather more than can be expected.

SIR RICHARD WEBSTER

I am sorry I did not explain myself fully. This clause really would not effect what the right hon. Gentleman desires. I agree with him that this system of obtaining credit when a man has passed away his property should be stopped; but that will be dealt with under the Bankruptcy Law. This is where a man has obtained credit when he has not registered a deed. The object of the Bill is to secure registration of such deeds, and if you are going to deal with the general offence of obtaining credit you should deal with that under some general Bankruptcy Law, and not in a Bill in which you say that in order to make the deeds valid they shall be registered.

MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)

The effect of not registering a deed is that you do not disclose it; non-discovery pure and simple is not either false pretence or fraud; but if this clause were passed, a creditor, who was assured of the existence of a deed, could, on a technical point, though the deed was discovered, obtain a conviction for misdemeanour. Undoubtedly we are in a difficulty, because there is no trick more common nowadays than for people to settle with creditors behind the back of the public, and then come and get credit; but I should think that a clause that would render these arrangements void, and compel them to pay creditors in full, would be sufficient to meet that. I think it would be highly improper to create an offence of this kind. If it is to be done, it should be done in some general Bill; therefore I shall support the Motion for the omission of the clause.

SIR ALBERT ROLLIT (Islington, S.)

This clause was inserted in consequence of a Resolution carried unanimously by the Chambers of Commerce; but I think I am correct in saying that in the Bill, as originally framed, there was no such clause. Seeing that objection is now taken to it by the Attorney General on behalf of the Government, and, as I am told it cannot possibly be conceded, I feel I must not press the point.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause struck out.

Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to, with verbal Amendments.

Clause 14 (Local registration of abstract of deeds).

MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork)

I have an Amendment to the clause. In page 4, line 40, at the end of Sub-section 2, I beg to move the insertion of the words—"This section shall not apply to Ireland."

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 40, at end of Sub-section 2, insert the words—"This section shall not apply to Ireland."—(Mr. Maurice Healy.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause 15 (Affidavits).

On the Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, the following Amendments made:—In page 5, line 3, after "any," leave out "Commissioners," and insert "person;" and in page 4, line 42, leave out from "Master of," to "or before," in page 5, line 3, and insert "the Supreme Court of Judicature in England or Ireland."

On the Motion of Mr. CHANCE, the following Amendment made:—In page5, line 4, to leave out "Court," and insert "Courts."

Amendment proposed, in page 5, line 4, after "Judicature," insert the words "Ireland or England."—(Mr. Chance.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER) (Isle of Wight)

I think that is rendered unnecessary by my Amendment just passed.

MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)

I do not think so, as I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will find by reading on to the context.

SIR ALBERT ROLLIT

May I, as a mere matter of drafting, venture to suggest that it should read "England or Ireland?" This will conform to other clauses.

Amendment amended, and, as amended, agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16 (Fees).

On the Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, the following Amendments made:—In page 5, line 13, after "1875," insert "as regards England, and the eighty-fourth section of 'The Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act, 1877,' as regards Ireland;" and in line 14, leave out "this section," and insert "these sections respectively."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 (Rules).

On the Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, the following Amendment made:—In page 5, line 19, leave out "and regulations."

On the Motion of Mr. CHANCE, the following Amendment made:—In page 5, line 20, after "1881," insert "as regards England, and 'The Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act, 1877,' as regards Ireland."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER) (Isle of Wight)

I think the Committee will remember that Clause 4 was postponed for the purpose of drafting the new clause which I now propose to substitute. It is practically the same, with the difference that in the original clause there is a mixing up of the enacting and interpreting part, and it was suggested that these would be better divided into two clauses, a course which recommended itself to the promoters. It was suggested by those who consulted me, and I do not think there is any objection to the new clause. It explains that the Act should include only deeds executed by a debtor for the benefit of his creditors, and by changing the language of the fifth line I have put this beyond doubt; and, save this alteration, the clause is the same as the original Clause 4.

On the Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, Postponed Clause 4 omitted.

New Clause:—

(Application of Act.)

"(1.) This Act shall apply to every deed of arrangement as defined in this section executed after the commencement of this Act."

(Deeds to which the Act applies.)

"(2.) A deed of arrangement to which this Act applies shall include any of the following instruments, whether under seal or not, executed by, for, or in respect of the affairs of a debtor for the benefit of his creditors generally (otherwise than in pursuance of the Law for the time being in force relating to bankruptcy), that is to say:—

  1. "(a.) An assignment of property;
  2. "(b.) A deed of or agreement for a composition; "And in cases where creditors of a debtor obtain any control over his property or business:—
  3. "(c.) A deed of inspectorship entered into for the purpose of carrying on or winding up a business;
  4. "(d.) A letter of license authorising the debtor or any other person to manage, 1344 carry on, realise, or dispose of a business with a view to the payment of debts; and
  5. "(e.) Any agreement or instrument entered into for the purpose of carrying on or winding up the debtor's business, or authorizing the debtor or any other person to manage, carry on, realise, or dispose of the debtor's business, with a view to the payment of his debts."—(Mr. Attorney General,)
—brought up, and read a first and second time, and added to the Bill.

On the Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, the following Amendment made:—In page 5, after Clause 17, insert the following Clause:—

(Interpretation terms.)

"In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires,—'Court or a Judge' means the High Court of Justice and any Judge thereof; 'person' includes a body of persons corporate or unincorporate; 'prescribed' means prescribed by rules to be made under this Act; 'property' has the same meaning as the same expression has in 'The Bankruptcy Act, 1883; "Rules' includes forms."

Schedule.

On the Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, the Schedule struck out of the Bill.

Preamble.

MR. CHANCE

The Preamble requires some slight amendment, owing to the omission of the Schedule that has just passed.

On the Motion of Mr. CHANCE, the following Amendments made:—In page 1, line 2, leave out the word "trader;" and in line 4, leave out the word "Act," and insert the words "Acts in England and Ireland."

Preamble, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 283.]

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