§ Bill, as amended, considered.
§ Amendment proposed to be made in the Title, by leaving out the word "Margarine," in order to insert the word "Butterine,"—(Mr. Maclure,)—instead thereof.
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'Margarine' stand part of the Title."
§ DR. CLARK (Caithness)I should have liked to hear from the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Stretford Division of Lancashire (Mr. Maclure) some reason for the course he has taken in moving this Amendment. My reason for proposing the introduction of the word "Margarine" was that the substance in question is known by that name in the trade. The largest manufacturers and dealers always call it by that name in their circulars; and under that name it is sold in packages of 28 lbs. and 14 lbs.; and there is also a 1 lb. box of margarine. It is, moreover, called by its proper name—margarine—in France and Germany. For these reasons I think we should call this substance margarine in England, and not allow it to be imposed upon the poorer classes as butter. It is said that it is wholesome food, but the fat in it does not assimilate as easily as butter; and if that were a sufficient argument, I might bring forward a mixture of chalk and water and call it milk, because I could show on very strong grounds that chalk is of great use 476 in the human economy. If I were to do so, however, I should probably get very little support in this House or in the country. I cannot understand why hon. Gentlemen should so strongly object to calling this thing by its proper name. I remember that when some years ago I had to make an examination into this matter, I found in some places that the farmers were in the habit of going to the country towns to buy cheap butter at 1s. per lb., and then selling it at 1s. 6d. per lb. Here we have a substance which contains only 5 per cent of butter, and I think we ought not to be afraid of the effect upon trade which would result from its being sold to the people who consume it under the name of "margarine," by which it is known in the trade. For the reasons I have given, I hope the House will stand by the decision arrived at in Committee.
§ MR. JACOB BRIGHT (Manchester, S.W.)We are dealing here with a trade which is known as the butterine trade, in which there was last year an importation equal to the value of £4,000,000 sterling, although, of course, that does not represent its whole magnitude, because there is a considerable manufacture of butterine in this country. I would not ask the House to rescind the decision arrived at the other night, if I thought the decision had been fairly taken. But no notice had then been given of the change proposed, and the Report of the Select Committee was not then in the hands of Members. It seems to me that when you interfere with a great trade you should do so in daylight, and when all the Members interested in the question are present. There is no precedent for the House passing a law to say by what name an article of trade should be called. We are told that the name of "butterine" is fraudulent; but nothing can be more absurd. The name is in perfect accord with the commercial nomenclature of the day. We have, besides "butterine," the terms velveteen, leatherine, sateen, ivorine, and others, all of which are perfectly well understood to mean articles made in imitation of something much, better than the things they represent. I think, on the part of those hon. Members of the House who desire to protect the butter trade, that it is not necessary to interfere with the use of the term butterine. I think it is enough for this 477 House to pass a Bill to safeguard butter, and imposing a penalty on the retailer who sells butterine for butter, of £20 for the first, £50 for the second, and £100 for the third offence, and enacting that every package in which the article is sold should have the word "butterine" printed upon its top, bottom, and sides. Surely this is a sufficient protection to the butter trade. Again, butterine does not, in the slightest degree, interfere or compete with good butter. It competes with bad butter; and it has had this good effect—that it has done much to reform the manufacture of butter; it has diminished the consumption of bad butter by one-half—that was the evidence given before the Committee—and the poor take it in preference to treacle. I believe that the manufacturers and the wholesale and retail dealers have assented to these severe restrictions and penalties in the belief that the name would not be altered, for to alter the name would greatly embarrass the trade. People would go to the shops and ask for butterine, which would be a thing no longer known by that name, and the result would be that the retailer and the trade generally would be extremely perplexed. I hope the House will hesitate before they decide to substitute the word margarine for butterine.
§ MR.C.W. GRAY (Essex, Maldon)In the interest of the poor classes I strongly disapprove of this Amendment. The evidence given upstairs clearly shows that the members of one of the largest Cooperative Societies in England, having every opportunity of knowing the difference between real butter and butter substitute, nearly invariably choose real butter. This large Co-operative Society, with all its ramifications, only sold about 5 per cent of butter substitute. That being the case, it is clear to my mind that when the working classes know that one article is real butter, and that the other article is merely a butter substitute, they choose the genuine commodity. And then the hon. Member for South-West Manchester (Mr. Jacob Bright) has told us that butterine has done wonders for the real butter trade; but surely margarine has done just as much. I think it is most important in the interests of the consumers that there should be no opportunity whatever for the vendors of butter substitute in any way to palm off an article on the working classes that the 478 working classes do not wish to buy. Then there is another interest which I think ought to be studied, and that is the agricultural interest. Surely the agricultural interest may have a voice in the decision of this rather knotty point. Though hon. Members on this side of the House are not unfrequently voting in opposition to the wishes of hon. Members below the Gangway opposite, surely this is just one of those questions in which hon. Members on this side of the House might strain a point and support hon. Members from Ireland. This is certainly a legitimate question for Irish Members to bring before the House. They are directly interested in the production of butter; and I hope that in the interests of the consumers and of the agriculturists of England and Ireland we shall keep to what the House did the other night—namely, retain the word "margarine" instead of "butterine."
SIR LYON PLAYPAIR (Leeds, S.)I think the arguments used by the hon. Member for the Maldon Division of Essex (Mr. C. W. Gray) just now in favour of allowing the working classes to choose for themselves in this matter are very strong. If they desire to have a good and healthy material at a cheap rate as a substitute for butter, I think they ought to be permitted to obtain this in the easiest way possible. The word "margarine" is an utterly false and wrong name. "Margarine" it is not. If you had substituted oleomargarine it would have been all right; but margarine is a solid and crystallized substance well known to the trade, having no resemblance to butter whatever, and its purpose is to make candles stiff. It has nothing to do with butter. Stearine and margarine are well known to be used in the manufacture of candles. Oleomargarine is a butter substitute, and is the scientific name for the material sold with this object. Why puzzle poor persons who want a butter substitute by calling it oleomargarine? If you want, by Act of Parliament, to compel people who have a dirty pavement to wash it with water, why should you use the scientific name for water, and say they are to wash it with protoxide of hydrogen. That is just equivalent to calling this material oleomargarine. The poor people do not understand it. They understand butterine as a substitue for 479 butter. Butterine is a material which contains 95 per cent of the very substances which, are in butter. There are 5 per cent of aromatic acids in butter which gives it the taste which is not in butterine nor oleomargarine; but the rest is exactly the same as cows' butter. It is butter made from the ox, instead of from the cow. Ox butter is a healthy and good substance for the poor to obtain. Butterine obviously indicates that it is not butter, but a substitute for butter; and, therefore, I shall support the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Maclure).
§ MR. COLMAN (Norwich)The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Maldon Division of Essex (Mr. C. W. Gray) said the evidence given before the Committee proved conclusively that butterine was not the proper title to give to this substance. I should like to say for myself—and I think I may also say it for the majority of the Committee—that that is not the view we entertain. We came to the conclusion from the evidence given to us that butterine was the proper name. Sir Frederick Abel, the analytical officer in the Government Department, was asked if it struck him that the name butterine had been given to the substance because it made it more saleable, and his reply was that it was very likely it had been. He added that he did not know what other name could well have been selected except butter substitute or margarine butter. I am sure that no Member of the Committee will contradict my statement that there was a large amount of evidence to show that the term butterine was a proper term to use. There is a feeling amongst a good many people that the retailers of articles of this sort are very much disposed to do what they can to commit fraud on the public. Personally, I entertain a totally contrary opinion. That there are some retailers so disposed I do not doubt; but I believe that on the whole that if you give retailers fair laws, if you give them proper definitions, they will do the best they can to conform to the laws and definitions. I think the term butterine, which the Committee by a considerable majority recommended for adoption, is the proper one. I came to this conclusion after hearing the evidence given to the Committee upstairs; and, therefore, I shall very cordially support the Amendment.
MR. STAVELEY HILL (Staffordshire, Kingswinford)The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Leeds (Sir Lyon Playfair) has told us this is not margarine at all, that it is an entirely different compound. We must recollect what was told us by the hon. Gentleman who opened the debate (Dr. Clark). He quoted the prices charged for margarine, this very article. We have it that there is this article, and that it is sold as margarine. If we use the word "butterine," the "ine" will be dropped and frauds continually practised.
§ MR. M. J. KENNY (Tyrone, Mid)The Motion of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Maclure), if adopted, will simply reverse the decision the Committee of the Whole House arrived at the other night on an Amendment of mine. The hon. Gentleman has found fault with me for seeking to reverse the decision of the Select Committee. The Committee of the Whole House is perfectly entitled to overhaul any decision of a Select Committee. When a Select Committee has been appointed to report on a Bill it is the especial function of the Committee of the Whole House to overhaul the decision of the Committee upstairs. I am particularly anxious to reverse the decision of the Select Committee, because they arrived at their decision under a misapprehension. The Select Committee were influenced mainly by the desire to have some Bill passed, and it was dinned into the ears of the Committee that if they adopted a change in the name the persons representing the dealers in the article would be able to command sufficient support in the House to prevent legislation. It was a case of Hobson's choice, and the Committee arrived at a decision at which they certainly would not have arrived had they been left to; their own judgment. Under the circumstances, I felt perfectly justified in bringing the question before the Committee of the Whole House. Any misgivings I had on the point were certainly dissipated when the Committee approved of what I suggested. Now, I only wish to say one or two words upon this Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Leeds (Sir Lyon Playfair) has given us the scientific meaning of "margarine," and has suggested "oleomargarine" instead. The best answer to that is the fact that 481 the traders in spurious butter have, to some extent, adopted "margarine." This stuff is merely the fat taken from the ox, while butter is the fat extracted from milk. There has been no proof furnished that it is not possible to make this stuff from the fat of any other animal. There is no reason why this article should not be manufactured from the fat of a dead horse. It is really in the interest of the poor people of this country, who consume this article, that we are moving in the matter. It is pre eminently to their interest that they should not be supplied with these deleterious substances, and, above all, supplied with them under a name which suggests that they are obtaining butter. The dealers are the only persons who are interested in retaining the old and fraudulent name of butterine. It is a name which the Board of Trade have for years refused to recognize. They have refused their recognition of the name mainly because the name suggested fraud, and, above all, facilitated fraud. The only remedy for the purchaser is to summon the retailer for selling adulterated food. Suppose a case is carried into Court, the first question upon cross-examination put to the purchaser will be—"What were you sold?" He will answer—"I was sold butterine." He will then be asked—"Did you ask for butter?" and he will say "Yes." The next question will, of course, be—"Will you swear the dealer did not tell you he was serving you with butterine?" There is a great similarity in the names, and very few men will care to say that the last three letters were not used. The word facilitates fraud, and practically renders prosecutions impossible, because very few persons will care to go to the expense of instituting them. Now, with regard to the respectable dealers in this article. The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment (Mr. Maclure) has amongst his constituents one of the principal retail dealers in Manchester—Mr. Seymour Mead. The other day this gentleman wrote a letter, which appeared in the Manchester papers, and in it he distinctly stated that by their fraudulent practices the retail dealers had brought this legislation on themselves. He suggested the name of margarine.
§ MR. MACLUREI rise to Order. I am not aware Mr. Seymour Mead is one of my constituents.
§ MR. M. J. KENNYThat is scarcely a point of Order. Almost all the respectable dealers in the North of England and Scotland agree with the proposal to change this name, and it is only those persons interested in the continuance of fraudulent practices who are exerting Heaven and earth to retain the name "butterine."
§ MR. HOYLE (Lancashire, S.E., Heywood)I do not think anyone will dispute the contention of the hon. Member who has just sat down that the House has a perfect right to reverse the decision a Select Committee has come to; that is a right which belongs to all Superior Courts; but I have always understood that a Superior Court reads the evidence before it reverses the decision of an Inferior Court. The House is in a very unfortunate position in reference to this Bill. The second reading was taken without discussion. There has been no discussion in the House on the principle of the Bill. I should like to ask what is the principle underlying this Bill? Is it to prevent fraud, or is it protection? We have a right to know what we are to vote upon. I may inform the House that the evidence given before the Select Committee clearly proved that margarine would be a nickname, and would not correctly represent the substance sold. So strong was the evidence on this question, that the noble Lord the Member for Ipswich (Lord Elcho) told the Committee that he entered on his duties as a Member of the Committee strongly prejudiced against the name of "butterine;" but the evidence had convinced him that the word "butterine" ought to be retained. The opinions of four or five Members of the Committee were changed during the evidence, and when the decision was taken 15 Members were present; 10 voted for the adoption of the name "Butterine," and five for the name "Oleomargarine." We are entitled to ask the House to support the Select Committee until the House has had an opportunity of reading the evidence. I do not know why its publication has been delayed. I only wish to mention one other fact, and that is, that the hon. Baronet the Member for the Wells Division of Somerset (Sir Richard Paget), who has charge of the Bill, accepted the word "butterine." I trust that name may be re-inserted in the Bill.
§ SIR RICHARD PAGET (Somerset, Wells)My hon. Friend (Mr. Hoyle) is under a slight misapprehension. I occupied the position of Chairman of the Select Committee, and, therefore, I was precluded from voting upon the point. As a matter of fact, I did not give a vote in the Committee. Now, the issue before the House is a very simple one. We all desire to prevent fraud. None of us desire to interfere with legitimate trade. The Committee who investigated this question took a merciful view of it. They listened to the appeal of the traders, who were very much alarmed lest their trade would be injured if the name were changed. Having regard to the views of the traders, the Committee reported in favour of allowing the term "butterine" to be used, but at the same time they approved of the imposition of very severe penalties. The other night the Committee of the Whole House changed the name from "butterine" to "margarine," and removed the penalties. [Cries of "No, no!"] In the Select Committee imprisonment for six months was adopted as the punishment for the third offence; but the other night in Committee of the Whole House that penalty was withdrawn. What I suggest to the House is that, if the decision of the House to-night should be to reverse the decision of the Committee of the Whole House, it would be necessary to reinstate the provision as to punishment. Now, I confess I am disposed to think that the traders themselves take a rather exaggerated view of the importance of the name of this article. Suppose the word "butterine" were retained, what would the Act do? It would oblige that in every case the article should be sold under that name and no other. At present, it is sometimes sold as margarine, sometimes as gelatine, sometimes as mixtures; it is sold under many other names. Under this Act it can only be sold under one name. It is for the House to decide what that name shall be.
§ MR. MCLAREN (Cheshire, Crewe)I should like the hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms), as the Representative of the Government, to give us the opinion of the Government on this question.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 124; Noes 99: Majority 25.—(Div. List, No. 295.)
§ [3.5. A.M.]
§ Amendment made.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 2, line 36, to leave out the words "shall be duly entered as such by the officers of Her Majesty's Customs."—(Mr. Jackson.)
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
§ MR. F. S. POWELL (Wigan)I propose the Amendment standing in my name. The point is very simple, purely one of administration. The form of words I propose is similar to that used in the Food and Drugs Act.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 3, line 1, before the word "charged" to insert the words "under the direction of the authority appointing such officer, or medical officer, inspector of nuisances, or police constable, or."—(Mr. F. S. Powell.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. M. J. KENNYI am rather inclined to think that these words are unnecessary, because the procedure under this Act will be the procedure prescribed by Sections 12 to 28, inclusive, of the Food and Drugs Act. I am perfectly certain that in those sections there is included the provision that the official acting will only act under the direction of the person appointing him.
§ SIR. RICHARD PAGETI agree with the hon. Member for Mid Tyrone (Mr. M. J. Kenny) that these words are not necessary. The object of the Amendment is already secured. My hon. Friend (Mr. F. S. Powell) desires to make the Act more clear; but I cannot think that his words add to the value of the Act.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 3, line 4, to leave out the word "analysis," and insert the words "submitting the same to be analysed."—(Mr. F. S. Powell.)
§ Question, "That the word 'analysis' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
§ Question, "That the proposed words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ Bill read the third time, and passed.