HC Deb 29 August 1887 vol 320 cc429-39

(The Lord Advocate, Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland, Sir Herbert Maxwell.)

COMMITTEE. [Progress 16th August.]

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 and 2 severally agreed to.

Clause 3 (Power for School Board to provide technical school).

MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.)

I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name. Perhaps it would improve the phraseology if I withdrew the Amendment, and used the words "or technical instructing in an existing school."

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 13, after "school," insert "or a technical department in an existing school." —(Mr. Hunter.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H. A. MACDONALD) (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities)

The expression "technical schools" means a school, or part of school in which technical instruction is given. I think the Amendment is unnecessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, line 17, after "fund," insert "and it shall further be competent for any school board to make such arrangements as they may deem expedient for teaching the principles of agriculture in the elementary schools under their charge, and provide such an area of land by purchase, lease, yearly tenancy, or otherwise, as in their opinion will be sufficient for the purpose of practically illustrating the aforesaid principles."—(Mr. Macdonald Cameron.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE CHAIRMAN

I am of opinion that it is incompetent for the hon. Member to make a proposal which gives power to a school board to buy land for the purposes of technical instruction. The Amendment must stop at the words "under their charge," and the remaining words after that must be omitted.

Amendment amended, and, as amended, again proposed.

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE) (Kent, Dartford)

The Bill has nothing to do with agriculture.

MR. HUNTER

I hope the Amendment will be pressed, because I think a distinct provision should be made for instruction in agriculture.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, In line 17, after the word "fund," insert the words" the subjects to be taught in the school shall be such as may from time to time be approved of by the Scotch Education Department."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, To add to the words last inserted—" The school board shall fix the school fees to he paid for attendance at each technical school under their management, and such fees shall he paid to the treasurer of the board, and a separate account shall he kept of the amount of the fees derived from such school; and it shall be lawful for the school board, if they see tit, to pay to the teachers of a technical school the fees derived from such school, and to divide the same among them as the school board shall determine. Any deficiency which may exist in the technical school fund shall he payable out of the school fund provided under the Education (Scotland) Acts, 1872 and 1833."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

MR. E. ROBERTSON (Dundee)

If we trust the Local Authority at all, I believe it would be wiser to trust them altogether, without the limitation the 2nd sub-section of this clause imposes, and I therefore move the omission of the sub-section.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 18, to leave out sub-section (2).— (Mr. E. Robertson.)

Question proposed, "That Sub-section (2) stand part of the Clause."

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

I sincerely hope the hon. and learned Member will not press his Amendment, for I am sure its acceptance would be very unacceptable to the people of Scotland. It would amount to this—that by a single resolution of a school board, and without giving time for consideration, and for the views of the ratepayers to become known, the latter would be involved in a large expenditure. The whole object of the Bill is to allow full consideration, and it is obvious that the whole scope of it would be defeated by adopting this Amendment.

MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. Rollox)

May I add an additional objection to that urged by the Lord Advocate. The consent of the Education Department is necessary, with a view to the protection of existing technical schools in the district with which the action of a school board might seriously interfere.

MR. HUNTER

There would be considerable force in what the Lord Advocate has stated if the Bill stood with its original form of procedure for technical schools. But he has accepted an Amendment under which technical classes can be established in any ordinary school. Now, there might be very considerable reason for this provision in view of a large expenditure; but if it is merely a question in some small school of providing special instruction in agriculture or any other subject, it really seems hard that a school board should not be able to do that without all the cumbrous machinery of this Act.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

May I point out that it is simply a question of departmental consent, and that would be required in the case referred to.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Provision for confirmation of resolution with reference to establishment of school).

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 25, after the word "time," to insert the words "not being earlier than one month after the first publication of such resolution."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in line 27, to leave out from the word "order."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question, "That those words be there left out," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In line 28, after "1872,'' to add, "in considering such resolution of a school board, and before confirming the same, and in sanctioning the subjects to be taught in the proposed technical school, the said Department shall hear all parties interested who may claim to be heard, and shall take into account all technical schools, whether public or not, and whether or not situated in the school hoard district, which in their opinion gives, or will when completed give in whole or in part, efficient technical instruction for the residents in such school district."— (Mr. Caldwell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HUNTER

I object altogether to thus limiting the operation of the Bill, and limiting the powers of the School Board. I am of opinion that the School Board is a very much better judge on questions of this kind than the Education Department. The Amendment is altogether in a retrograde direction. I should like the School Board to have as little to do with the Scotch Education Department as possible. Schools and Education were never so flourishing as when they wore left to Local Autho- rities before the Education Department existed. The effect of the action of the Education Department has been injurious to education, and I cannot support anything that tends to take away the discretion of the Local Authorities, who know best what is wanted in the locality, and give control to the officials in London, who know nothing of what is wanted.

MR. CALDWELL

The Committee have accepted the principle that the sanction of the Department shall be given before the resolution is carried into effect. [" No, no ! "] Yes; it is already provided that a school board shall not carry into effect any resolution for the establishment of a technical school unless it has been confirmed by the Scotch Education Department.

MR. E. ROBERTSON

It has not come to that yet. I have an Amend merit.

MR. CALDWELL

Yes; that is passed.

THE CHAIRMAN

Unfortunately, the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee is misplaced on the Paper. We have agreed to strike out from the word "order" to the end of the sub-section. Of course, the Amendment of which the hon. and learned Member has given Notice, to omit the clause altogether, still stands.

MR. E. ROBERTSON

Am I to understand that the sub-section is passed?

THE CHAIRMAN

Yes; that is so. The Amendment of the hon. and learned Member does not occupy its proper place on the Paper. We have struck out the words at the end of Sub-section 2, so we cannot go back again to the beginning of that sub-section.

MR. CALDWELL

Referring to the Education (Scotland) Act of 1872, it will be found that a provision there prescribes that no school shall be erected without the consent of the Department, and this clause is identically the same. It is the natural result of what we have already done. It will never do to give a school board power, without the consent of the Educational Department, to establish any kind of technical school for any kind of object they may think lit. If you give thorn that unlimited power, it must interfere with existing technical schools that are doing efficient work, and you might have two sets of technical schools; the one established by a school board, and having the support of local rates and Imperial taxation, cutting down the other school which was doing its work in a thoroughly efficient manner, on its own resources. It is, in my opinion, necessary to protect existing technical schools, and there is nothing novel in this proposal; it is transposed merely from the Act of 1872, and provides that the Department shall hear all parties. Nobody, I should have thought, would have objected to that.

MR. E. ROBERTSON

Has the Lord Advocate, by private arrangement, accepted this Amendment before it came before the Committee?

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

The hon. Member (Mr. Caldwell) consulted with his Friends and myself, and I agreed to accept the Amendment.

MR. BUCHANAN (Edinburgh, W.)

But does the Lord Advocate think the Amendment is at all expedient or necessary?

MR. T. H A. MACDONALD

I should have added that my only objection to it was that I thought it was unnecessary; but I see no harm in it, and the hon. Member seemed to think it was desirable that the Department should have its duty indicated.

MR. BUCHANAN

It may entail considerable hardship on a locality. I disagree with the hon. Member for the St. Rollox Division (Mr. Caldwell) that school boards should not be empowered, especially large Boards like those of Edinburgh and Glasgow, to establish technical schools for any object so long as it is sanctioned by the Department, whatever instruction may be given in private schools. The hon. Member urged his Amendment on that ground— that technical schools under the Act should not interfere with existing private technical schools in the school board district—and that is ground upon which I am wholly opposed to him. I do think the Department should consider the representations made to it; but surely it is not necessary to introduce such, elaborate instructions as to the way in which the Department should perform this portion of its duty. I think we ought to minimize the action and control of the Department in all details as much as possible.

MR. MARJORIBANKS (Berwickshire)

I hope my hon. Friend (Mr. Caldwell) will consent to with draw the Amendment. It is perfectly evident from what we have heard on all sides that the words are not absolutely necessary, and if my hon. Friend wishes to get on with the Bill I would advise him to make this concession to the opinion of the Scotch Members. He will see that the opinion of his Scotch Colleagues is against the introduction of this extra clause.

MR. CALDWELL

I would adopt the advice did I not think the Amendment is essential. I repeat there is nothing new about it; it is simply the transfer of a clause that already exists in the Elementary Education Act. All it does simply amounts to this—that the Education Department shall have absolute power to sanction a scheme or not; and there can be no doubt that the only way to come to a fair decision on the proposal is to give the opportunity for the hearing of all parties. Surely this is reasonable?

SIR WILLIAM HART DYKE

It may be a moot point whether the Amendment is necessary or not; but I may point out that the clause would impose no restraint upon the school board, which would have absolute freedom of action under the Bill.

MR. E. ROBERTSON

This Amendment affords an extraordinary example of the extreme inconvenience of attempting to proceed with the Bill at this hour, because it relates to Scotland. The Lord Advocate is obliged to get up, and confess that he agreed to accept the Amendment, though he considered it unnecessary, and the only excuse he can give takes the form of a ponderous joke, that if the Department does not know its duty, it is well to have that duty defined. I think the Committee will see that all this private arrangement, this lobbying, and caucussing in which this measure was born, has lead to an extremely inconvenient result. I think the Lord Advocate ought to resign the conduct of the Bill to my hon. Friend the Member for the St. Rollox Division (Mr. Caldwell). We have already unknowingly accepted an Amendment of which I know Scotch Members disapprove almost unanimously.

MR. MASON (Lanark, Mid)

I would recommend my hon. Friend (Mr. Caldwell) to withdraw his Amendment. It may lead to inconvenience, and I think it is mere surplusage. Let us drop the point, and get on with the Bill.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

After the expression of opinion we have had, I think the hon. Member might withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. E. ROBERTSON (Dundee)

I have now to move the omission of the clause, and the reasons for my doing so will appear, I think, from the discussion that has already taken place. The feeling of Scotch Members is entirely against this centralized control set up by the clause. We have no confidence in the authority to which the Government propose to entrust the control of this system of technical instruction; they propose to give to the clerks at Dover House a power they will not trust with the people of the locality whose interests are directly concerned. I shall take the opinion of the Committee on the clause.

Amendment proposed, to leave out Clause 4.—(Mr. E. Robertson.)

Question proposed, "That Clause 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

MR. MASON

I would suggest that we should leave the clause as it stands, and deal with the conditions of the control of the Department by Amendments to Clause 5.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

May I be allowed to remind hon. Members that this is not an opportunity for reforming the Central Authority that regulates Scotch educational matters. If that Department stands in need of reform, then let it be altered; but, so long as it continues to be the authority, its functions must be exercised under this Bill.

MR. HUNTER

That is an extraordinary doctrine to apply to the present occasion. The Bill proposes to give an entirely new power to this Scotch Authority. As to the powers it exercises under the Elementary Education Act, that is not before us here, we are asked to confer a new power, and we are entitled to ask why it is. It is preposterous to deny that power to such Local Authorities as those of Glasgow, Edinburgh, or Aberdeen, in local matters which you propose to give to a few gentlemen at Dover House. I remember when the subject was under discussion we were told that the staff at Dover House was necessarily very small, and it is not to be compared with the boards in the towns I have mentioned.

MR. J. A. CAMPBELL (Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities)

There may be faults in the Department; but we must remember that it is the Scotch Educational Authority, and the medium by which Government grants are obtained. I think the school boards themselves will admit the desirableness of retaining the clause.

MR. BUCHANAN

I hope my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. E. Robertson) will not divide on this question. If he wishes to raise the point, I think he could do so more substantially in reference to the next clause, not this in regard to which I am afraid many of us cannot support him.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 81; Noes 31: Majority 50. —(Div. List, No. 433.)

[3.20 A.M.]

Clause 5 (Conditions under which schools are to be conducted).

Amendment proposed, In line 1, to leave out the word "shall," and insert "if it claim a grant from the Department of Science and Art, shall, with respect to any subject for which such grant is claimed." —(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'shall' stand part of the Clause."

MR. HUNTER

I now beg to move that Progress be reported, and, after a reference to the hour, I think it is unnecessary to add any argument in support of the Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Hunter.)

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

I think we might take the clause first; it involves no disputed point.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and negatived.

Question, "That the words proposed be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

MR. BUCHANAN (Edinburgh, W.)

On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Mr. Sinclair), I beg to move the Amendment that stands in his name. All parties, I think, will be in favour of omitting these words. [" No ! "] My hon. Friend thinks not, but they are provided for by another Amendment, and it seems to me a vital point. There may be in existence minutes that would affect the working and operation of the Bill, and they ought to be in some form for us to take cognizance of.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, Subsection 3, lines 11 and 12, to leave out the words "not in force at the passing of this Act."—(Mr. Buchanan.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. E. ROBERTSON

I wish to point out that the Committee has been misled. I have been completely by the remark of the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate, a few minutes ago, in asking my hon. Friend (Mr. Hunter) to withdraw his Motion. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said there was no disputed point in the clause; but I find—

THE CHAIRMAN

If the hon. and learned Member does not propose to move his Amendment standing before this one, then I must put this Amendment.

MR. E. ROBERTSON

I am going, Sir, to ask a question upon this Amendment. I was misled by what the Lord Advocate said, and I did not take the trouble to look at the Amendments. But I find there is an important Amendment of my own to leave out Sub-section 2. [Laughter.] I say, frankly, I took the Lord Advocate's statement to be literally true, and was not paying attention to what was going on. [An hon. MEMBER: Raise it on Report.] It is suggested to me that I should raise the question on Report; but I have had an experience of raising questions on Report, and it does not encourage me to give away my chance of raising them in Committee. No; once bit, twice shy. My Amendment is to leave out Subsection 2, and the question I ask is—are schools to be admitted to have a Technical Department, if the managers think fit, or are the managers to come up to Dover House to effect their purpose. That is the real point. A grant is not made unless the school obtains a certificate from the Scotch Education Department.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

Will the hon. and learned Member allow me to explain that this is simply the certificate which has to be obtained now from the Scotch Education Department with respect to elementary education.

Amendment (Mr. E. Robertson), by leave, withdrawn.

MR. HUNTER

Before we pass from this, I should like to observe that the certificate which has to be obtained is to the effect that the examination has been passed which is described in the V. Standard.

Amendment (Mr. Buchanan) again proposed.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

It would be a great pity to strike out these words, for it would bring about this result—that the present directorate of the Science and Art Department would have to lay on the Table of the House all their rules already in force. As regards future Minutes, they ought to be laid on the Table.

MR. BUCHANAN (Edinburgh, W.)

In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk the Amendment will not be pressed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.