HC Deb 29 April 1887 vol 314 cc336-44

Bill, as amended, considered.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)

If I am in Order, I desire to move, in the temporary absence of the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Kelly) the new clause which he has placed upon the Paper, and in the drafting of which I may say I have been personally concerned.

MR. SPEAKER

It is not competent for the hon. Gentleman to move a new clause in the absence of the hon. Member in whose name it stands.

GENERAL GOLDSWORTHY (Hammersmith) moved the following new clause: In page 5, after Clause 8, to insert Clause 8a—

(" If authorized capital for any year not raised, the amount may be made up.")

"If in any year or years the Company have not issued capital to the full amount hereinbefore prescribed in relation to such year or years, they may in any subsequent year issue, in addition to the amount prescribed for such year, such amount of capital as shall be sufficient, together with the amount then raised, to produce in manner aforesaid twenty thousand pounds in respect of the first two years following the passing of this Act, and five thousand pounds in respect of every subsequent year then expired: Provided, That the Company shall not in any one year (after the first two years following the passing of this Act) issue any greater amount of capital than shall be sufficient to produce ten thousand pounds."

New Clause,—(General Goldsworthy,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the said Clause be now read a second time," put and agreed to.

MR. CUBITT (Surrey, Mid)

I may remind the House that the insertion of this clause was conditional on certain Amendments being inserted on the Motion of the hon. Member for Ber- mondsey (Mr. Lafone). The hon. Member has not moved those Amendments.

MR. LAFONE (Southwark, Bermondsey)

I am quite prepared to move them.

MR. SPEAKER

Does the hon. Gentleman propose to move his Amendment in substitution of the new clause which has just been proposed?

MR. LAFONE

I refer to the Proviso which stands in my name.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS (Mr. COURTNEY) (Cornwall, Bodmin)

I understand that this new clause depends upon a certain other thing being done.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. LAFONE (Southwark, Bermondsey)

I have now to propose to insert the following Proviso, in page 4, line 3, after "1871":— Provided also, that if the Company, in exercise of the powers conferred upon them under or by virtue of the Act of 1871, or section 12 of "The Waterworks Clauses Act, 1847," abstract, or in any way interfere with, any water now supplying any wells in use, or which would supply any wells sunk before the passing of this Act, but not in use on the premises belonging to the South Metropolitan District Schools, the Company shall be for ever bound to sell all water supplied by them to the said schools at the rate of seven pence per 1,000 gallons. I rise with great unwillingness to move the Proviso which stands in my name, because I am aware that it is an unusual step to take. There are, however, very peculiar circumstances connected with the case. I represent the Sutton District School Authorities, and I may say that if the House passes this Bill, in its amended form, those authorities will have to face the prospect of having the water supply, which they now receive from the wells which they have sunk, at great expense, taken from them. This protecting clause will prevent that possibility. They are now using at least 500,000 gallons of water per week, and they have an agreement with the existing Sutton Water Company for a supply of water under certain conditions. They have recently built a new school at Banstead, which is also in the Sutton Water Company's District; but it is necessary to raise the water for the Banstead school to a much higher level than at Sutton, and the expense of doing so is of course increased. I am told, however, that the new supply authorized by this Bill will have to be raised, in certain cases, some 80 or 90 feet higher than the level of Banstead School, Negotiations have been going on for some time, and the Sutton School Authorities have been exceedingly anxious to prevent any discussion in this House. They have, however, found it absolutely necessary to protect the interests of the schools and the children intrusted to their charge by obtaining the insertion of some clause such as that which I have placed on the Paper. The negotiations have proceeded as far as this, that, with the consent of the House, the Water Company are prepared to make an alteration in the clause to provide that they shall be bound to sell for ever the water supplied by them to the South Metropolitan District Schools, at the rate of 7½d. per 1,000 gallons; but we are not satisfied with this. The Company are asking for large concessions, and they are acquiring very largely extended powers for the supply of water all over the district. They propose to take powers which will enable them to draw water from a very wide area, and when their works are completed they will be able to largely increase their supply. We are afraid that when these powers are fully carried out a large portion of our supply will be taken away from us, and that we shall be practically at the mercy of the Sutton Water Works Company. That is a state of things which we have no desire to see brought about, nor do we intend to submit to it quietly. The Company propose to supply us at the same rate as their other customers, but that is not what we want at all. We want a great deal better terms, just as a manufacturer is able to attain better terms in the Metropolitan District. We are quite ready to give the Water Company a fair and reasonable price for the water supplied to us, but nothing more. We are by far the largest consumers of water in this district, and we think that we ought to have special advantages. I have no wish to detain the House, but I think I ought to mention the position in which, the managers of this school found themselves placed. They had no idea what the provisions of this Bill were, but as soon as they discovered that the Bill would materially interfere with their rights and privileges, they gave instructions that it should be opposed. Since then they have tried to negotiate outside the House so as to prevent, if possible, any obstruction to the progress of Public Business here. They have, however, found it impossible to come to an amicable settlement, and with the permission of the House I will move this Proviso, merely altering the figure six to seven.

Amendment proposed, In page 4, line 3, after "1871," insert the words "Provided also, that if the Company, in exercise of the powers conferred upon them under or by virtue of the Act of 1871, or section 12 of 'The Waterworks Clauses Act, 1847,' abstract, or in any way interfere with, any water now supplying any wells in use, or which would supply any wells sunk before the passing of this Act, but not in use on the premises belonging to the South Metropolitan District Schools, the Company shall be for ever bound to sell all water supplied by them to the said schools at the rate of seven pence per 1,000 gallons."—(Mr. Lafone.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. CUBITT (Surrey, Mid)

I am sorry, on the part of the promoters of this Bill to be obliged to oppose the Amendment which is brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Lafone). I think that hon. Gentlemen who have listened to him will see how highly technical the Amendment is. Whether the rate should be 6d. or 7d. or any other figure is really not a question which can be entertained by this House. It is altogether a question of evidence, and I am afraid that my hon. Friend and the Sutton District Authorities must suffer for having lost the proper opportunity of going before the Select Committee to whom the Bill was referred. Indeed, I believe that an Amendment of this kind is contrary to the spirit of our Standing Orders. This Bill has been for a long time before the House. It was read a second time before Easter, and an unusual indulgence was given to the opponents who represent the Local Authorities of the district. In the end, however, the Petition against the Bill was withdrawn, and the Bill passed as an unopposed measure, before the Chairman of Committees. That course having been taken, I contend that it is now too late in the day for the hon. Member to come down with a clause of this kind which it is quite impossible to discuss in a full House, seeing that it deals with a considerable amount of technical matter. Let me remind the House that this Water Company does not supply a small parish, but it includes within the limits of its supply a very extensive district. Hon. Members will therefore see that the question of a remunerative price for supplying certain schools is not one which can be easily decided. I hope that the House will at once reject the Amendment of my hon. Friend.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)

It is quite true that this Bill passed as an unopposed Bill before the Chairman of Committees. It is equally true that when the real facts of the case were known to the House, the House readily consented to the re-committal of the Bill in order that its merits should be fully considered. Now, what are the facts in regard to this Bill? The Local Authorities of the district were so far from being fully represented before the Committee, that they were only represented by the Local Board, which consists of 12 members, composed to a considerable extent of persons who have a personal interest in the Water Company. Of the total number there are no less than four whose personal interests are directly opposed to their duty as representatives of the Local Authority. One of them, Mr. Moore, is a Director of the Water Company, and also a member of the Local Board. Three other members of the Local Board were also shareholders in the Company, and I believe it is a fact that they transferred their shares a short time ago in order that they might be able to take part in the matter without rendering themselves liable to penalties hereafter. Under these circumstances, I am afraid that an efficient representation of the views of the local people was practically prevented from being heard before the Committee. In fact, it is pretty plain that the representation before the Select Committee was not what it ought to have been, seeing that the opposition to the Bill was not persisted in. This is all of a piece with previous proceedings. The Company propose to raise extra capital, but their real object is to put money practically into the hands of the shareholders. No body of persons are more interested in this Bill than the District Schools, which are represented by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment. I trust that in coming to a decision, hon. Members will recollect what the past pro- ceedings of this Company had been, and will not be induced to give way to the Water Company, and for the sake of the interests of certain shareholders to sacrifice the interests of the District Schools.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. COURTNEY) (Cornwall, Bodmin)

The hon. Member who has just sat down has stated matters which have no relevance to the question now before the House. That question is to insert a proviso requiring that water should be supplied at a fixed rate. I submit that it is impossible for the House to consider any Amendment of that kind. The price to be paid for a water supply by a particular school or by anybody else must depend upon a variety of circumstances which cannot be investigated in a full House. It is impossible for this House to consider Questions of this kind in detail. If they were to do so, they would render the work of our Committees upstairs impossible. No such investigation could be carried on in a full House with any security that adequate justice was being done to the parties. I would, therefore, advise the House to resist the insertion of any Amendment of this kind.

MR. KELLY (Camberwell, N.)

The School Managers are the largest ratepayers of Sutton; but it was scarcely possible for them to expend the heavy sum which would have been necessary if they had opposed this Bill in Committee. The School Authorities only ask that in event of their wells being deprived of water by the operations of the Water Company they should get their own water supply back again at the lowest possible rate. I think that it is a reasonable and a proper thing to ask. The Water Company are to take the water which, at the present moment, is in the possession of the District School Authorities, and all the School Authorities desire is that it shall be sold back to them again at the lowest possible rate.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 85; Noes 150: Majority 65.—(Div. List, No. 99.)

MR. KELLY (Camberwell, N.)

There are some Amendments which stand in my name upon the paper, and I am anxious to ascertain from my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Surrey (Mr. Cubitt) how far he is disposed to accept them. In order to ascertain that I beg to move in Clause 8, page 5, line 29, to leave out the word "mortgage," and insert the word "mortgages."

Amendment proposed, in Clause 8, page 5, line 29, to leave out the word "mortgage," and insert the word "mortgages."

Question proposed, "That the word 'mortgage' stand part of the Clause."

MR. CUBITT

I have no objection to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In Clause 8, page 5, line 32, after the word "pounds" insert "nor shall the Company create and issue in any subsequent year any greater amount of mortgages, debenture stock, or preference or ordinary shares or stock than shall he sufficient to produce in the aggregate, including any premium which may be obtained thereon, the sum of five thousand pounds."—(Mr. Kelly.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. CUBITT

I was prepared to accept this Amendment, provided the new clause proposed by the hon. Member had been inserted; but that clause has been passed over, and therefore I am afraid I must oppose the Amendment.

MR. KELLY

May I say that I was prevented from moving the clause which stands in my name simply by a desire to save the time of the House? I understood from my right hon. Friend that if the opponents of the Bill agreed to the insertion of the promoters' clause, he was willing to accept these Amendments. I am afraid that I have now lost the opportunity of moving the new clause which stands in my name; but I am perfectly ready, if it will be in Order, to ask the House to insert that clause.

MR. COURTNEY

Perhaps I may suggest a way of getting over the difficulty, if any real difficulty exists. The hon. Member for Camberwell proposes to insert a clause, and I understand that the Water Company are willing to assent to its insertion. The difficulty may be got over by moving the clause as a Proviso. If the Amendment is accepted, the hon. Member can then propose as a further Amendment, which would run "provided always, & c."

MR. KELLY

I understood that my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom was willing to accept all my Amendments, provided the promoters' new clause were inserted.

MR. COURTNEY

I appealed to the hon. Member to know whether he was ready to allow this Proviso to be accepted if the new clause were inserted, and I understood him to reply in the affirmative. The two depend upon each other, and can be accepted together.

MR. KELLY

In order that I may not unnecessarily occupy the time of the House, I may say that I will agree to the proposal of the hon. Member.

Question put, and agreed to.

MR. KELLY

moved, in page 5, after Clause 8, to insert Clause A— If in any year or years the Company have not issued capital to the full amount hereinbefore prescribed in relation to such year or years, they may in any subsequent year issue, in addition to the amount prescribed for such year, such amount of capital as shall be sufficient, together with the amount then raised, to produce in manner aforesaid twenty thousand pounds in respect of the first two years following the passing of this Act, and five thousand pounds in respect of every subsequent year then expired: Provided, That the Company shall not in any one year (after the first two years following the passing of this Act) issue any greater amount of capital than shall be sufficient to produce ten thousand pounds.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

MR. KELLY moved, in Clause 15, page 7, line 7, to leave out "one hundred," and insert "fifty."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. KELLY moved, in the same clause, line 9, to leave out the words— Requiring notice of the amount of such reserved price shall be sent by the Company in a sealed letter to the Board of Trade not less than twenty-four hours before the day of auction or last day for the reception of tenders as the case may be, and such letter may be opened after such day of auction or last day for the reception of tenders, and not sooner, and provided that no priority of tender shall be allowed to any holder of shares or stock in the Company.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

MR. KELLY moved, in Clause 17, line 27, after "advertise," to insert the words— With a declaration of the minimum price at which such shares or stocks would be sold.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Bill to be read the third time.

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