POST OFFICE—EXERCISE OF OFFICIAL PATRONAGE. (Hansard, 4 April 1887)

§ MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Camborne)
The matter of Post Office patronage, to which I desire to call attention, is one which excites a great deal of interest in the country; but I think I shall be consulting the feeling of the House if I postpone its consideration to a more favourable opportunity. I shall, therefore, content myself with moving the adjournment of the debate.

§ THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. RAIKES) (Cambridge University)
I sincerely hope the House will not agree to the Motion of the hon. Member, and I am extremely surprised that the hon. Member should have taken this course on the present occasion. When he first gave Notice of a Question on this subject he avoided putting it to me in the House. Subsequently the hon. Member gave Notice something like a month ago of his intention to bring forward a Motion impugning the administration of my Department. He had an opportunity of bringing that Motion forward on the Supplementary Estimates which he did not make use of, and on the evening when he might have done so he was not in his place. After having had the present Notice on the Paper for more than a month the hon. Member again takes the first opportunity of running away. It seems to me that an hon. Member who takes that course with reference to the Motion he has placed on the Paper is wanting not only in consideration to those concerned, but also wanting in respect for the House. The hon. Member has again the opportunity which he sought or appeared to seek of bringing forward his Motion, and he declines to make use of it.

§ MR. CONYBEARE
Sir, may I be allowed to make a personal explanation? The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General would not, I am sure, deal with me unfairly if he could help it. I have not dealt with him unfairly, and I do not wish to do so; but he has animadverted on the fact that on the former occasion on which it was possible for me to raise this question, with regard 451 to which I had placed a Question on the Paper, I was not in my place. The right hon. Gentleman has not stated to the House that which he will, perhaps, permit me to state—namely, that I sent him a Notice before my Question was reached to the effect that I did not intend to proceed with it that evening, for the very good reason that I understood that another hon. Member intended to proceed with the matter in a more systematic and complete manner. That was the sole reason I did not proceed with the subject that evening, and the fact that I was not in my place when the Question was called on was due to this consideration—that having given the right hon. Gentleman Notice that I was not going to put my Question, and as he did not intimate that he would insist upon giving an answer, I had left the House before it was reached. With regard to the Supplementary Estimates, I do not recollect whether I was in my place or not when this subject could have been dealt with in connection with them; hut I was in my place the whole time we were discussing the Estimates during the All-night Sitting. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am not going to "run away from my guns." I am perfectly prepared to go on with the matter at this moment if the Government insist upon it; but I really think it would he in the public interest that we should not go on with it to-night. It would be much more to the public interest that the discussion should take place at such a period when we should be likely to have it reported in the newspapers, which is not likely to be the case at the present moment. It has been insinuated by the right hon. Gentleman that I am afraid to go on with the discussion. I am not afraid, but I would remind him that if we do not proceed with it now we shall have ample opportunity of doing so when the Post Office Vote comes before us.

§ MR. STOREY (Sunderland)
The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General is never so happy as when he is heroic. He is in his most heroic humour to-night. At 1 o'clock in the morning, in an attenuated House, he calls upon my hon. Friend the Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall to address himself to a question of considerable moment, and he amuses himself by remarking that my hon. Friend 452 has "run away from his guns." The best answer to that is that my hon. Friend is sitting here on my right hand at this moment, and has got all his guns —and big ones they are—behind him, and is perfectly ready to stand to them. Mr. Deputy Speaker, for my own part, I do not know much about the Motion my hon. Friend proposes to move, but I have one feeling about this matter. I am quite prepared, as I think most hon. Members who have been in the House for a few years will know, to support any Government, whether it be Liberal or Tory, in making progress with Public Business at a convenient time; but I would tell the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of this House, who happens to be in his place, that at 1 o'clock in the morning I am, upon principle, an Obstructionist. I think it is extremely inconvenient that at 1 o'clock in the morning, a time when all decent people are in bed, we should be debating in this House questions of great moment; and though if my hon. Friend chooses to go on with his Motion I shall be prepared to sit hero to give him what support I can, I do beseech the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House to consider that the hour is 1 o'clock in the morning. [The hon. Member here paused for some time. Cries of "Order!"] I am waiting until the Chancellor of the Exchequer has finished his conversation with the Leader of the House. I should like to point out to the First Lord of the Treasury that, under the new Rule which, when we get our senses, we are going to vote—which all hon. Members, no matter whore they may sit, are going to support—we are going to finish all Business at half-past 12 o'clock. I humbly submit, therefore, that, out of consideration for the delicate nature of our constitutions, the right hon. Gentleman ought now to allow us to adjourn. I strongly support the proposal of the hon. Member that the debate be now adjourned.

§ MR. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr)
I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will assent to this Motion. There is a Notice upon the Paper in which I myself feel a considerable interest—a Motion dealing with the relative cost of the Irish, English, and Scotch police. In the discussion which will take place upon that Motion I hope to be able to make some disclo- 453 sures of a very important character. It is impossible to go into such a matter as that at this late hour of the night. If the Motion of my hon. Friend were to be brought on to-night, it would afford us still another reason for desiring the adjournment, because this is the only occasion, under the new system which has been adopted, on which private Members can bring forward any grievance which they think of importance. It seems to me that the general opinion of the House is that the Government should agree to the adjournment of the debate.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)
I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Storey) that it would be most reasonable that we should go to bed at half-past 12; but I would remind hon. Gentlemen that that arrangement can only be arrived at by having reasonable regard to length of speeches, and also to the importance of questions raised in debate. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree to that condition. Under existing circumstances, I would submit that, at this hour of the evening, there is yet time to consider the Motion which stands on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall. Another hon. Member opposite has referred to his desire to discuss another Motion which stands upon the Paper. I would remind that hon. Member that the questions he proposes to raise are questions which can be raised on the particular Vote to which they relate. There is no reason whatever why the question the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Conybeare) desires to raise should not be raised on the Post Office Vote itself.

§ MR. CONYBEARE
The Postmaster General does not want it so raised.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
Then, to satisfy the Postmaster General and the hon. Member for Camborne, I am quite willing to sit here for some time longer.

§ MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)
I have sat here the whole evening with many of my hon. Friends around me, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House can complain of the part we have taken in the de-bates. We have left them entirely, or almost entirely, to English and Scotch Members. I have sat here the whole evening waiting for the very important 454 Motion which stands on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. P. Stanhope) to come on. If the Motion of the hon. Member for Camborne is disposed of, that Motion will be discussed. It is a Motion which it is very proper to bring on in the shape of an Amendment to the Motion that you, Sir, do leave the Chair, because it is a matter raising very serious questions, and questions in which hon. Members from Ireland have for a long time taken great interest. We have been endeavouring for years to bring the scandals it deals with under the notice of this country, and at last an English Member has been so struck by the facts of the case that he has been moved himself to take it up. I wish to point out that if the debate on the Post Office is to go on now we shall be obliged to have our debate on the Motion of the hon. Member for Wednesbury afterwards. For my own part, though I am not desirous of staying up to a very late hour, if the Loader of the House desires that we should do so in order to go on with these matters I shall be quite willing.

§ MR. O. V. MORGAN (Battersea)
I would venture to point out that I am interested in a Bill which is down for second reading to-night—namely, the Metropolis Management Acts Amendment (No. 2) Bill. That Bill is not blocked, and it will not take live minutes to discuss it; but I am afraid that if we go into the discussion of these Post Office questions to-night we shall not be able to take the second reading of that measure.

§ MR. ISAACS (Newington, Walworth)
I would remove a misapprehension from the mind of the hon. Member who has just spoken. It is quite true that I have removed the block from the second reading of his Bill, but it is my intention to oppose the second reading, and when that stage comes on it will be necessary for me to ask the indulgence of the House for some little time.

§ MR. W. REDMOND (Fermanagh, N.)
The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House gets up remarkably fresh, not having been here during a greater portion of the debate, and thinks it is quite fair to go on with the Motion with regard to the Post Office. I think the right hon. Gentleman in this matter might have some regard for the views 455 of the rest of the House as well as for his own. A great many hon. Members have been in close attendance all night, while the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House has been away enjoying himself somewhere else. [Cries of "Order!"] If I am out of Order in saying that the right hon. Gentleman has been enjoying himself I withdraw the expression. The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General said that because my hon. Friend the Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall proposed an adjournment at a quarter past I he was "running away from his guns." I do not think that that is a statement which ought to come from a Minister of the Crown. I think it is very disgraceful indeed that because an adjournment is asked for on a Motion of this kind the person asking for it should be accused in this most wanton and almost insulting manner of running away. If there is any running away it is more likely to be on the part of the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General, because he expressed a very strong desire that my hon. Friend should go on with his Motion now. Why does the right hon. Gentleman evince so much anxiety for the Motion to come on now? It is because he knows that there are few Members in the House, and because he knows that the Motion, if gone on with at this moment, is not likely to attract the attention which it would have attracted if it had come on at a more reasonable hour; it is also because he knows that at this hour the discussion would not be reported at any great length in the morning papers. Of course, the Postmaster General is very much interested in this Motion, dealing, as it does, with his position and conduct in the Office he fills. Under the circumstances, I think he ought to accede to the reasonable request which is now made to adjourn. By doing that he would show the House that he is not only prepared to meet the statement about to be made as to his Office, but that he is anxious that the statement should be made, and made publicly, before a full House, and when there would be an opportunity for the newspapers to report the debate. Under these circumstances, I think the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House ought to give way. If he does not give way my hon. Friend will go on with his Motion, though it is 456 very hard lines that the Leader of the House should come down and, not having been in the House all night, insist upon our going on with the important debate at this unreasonable hour in the morning.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)
The real question before the House is whether the right hon. Gentleman has got his 200 Members to back him or not. If he has not, of course we can continue to debate this question; but if he has, he had better put us out of our pain at once. So far as the Motion of the hon. Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall is concerned, I should like to hear it debated. My sympathies are all on the side of the Postmaster General; and if it comes to giving a vote on the matter, my vote, I think, will have to go for the right hon. Gentleman, and not for the hon. Member for Camborne; because whenever a question comes on between a preaching gentleman like Mr. Stephenson Blackwood and the head of a Department I shall always vote against the preaching gentleman.

§ MR. MURPHY (Dublin, St. Patrick's)
I take great interest in the Motion which is down later on the Paper; but I do not share the views of my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), who desires to sit up here all-night to debate it. I would very much rather that it came on at a reasonable hour of the night, when one could listen to and take part in a debate with some sense of comfort; and I would, therefore, appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House to consent to the adjournment.

§ MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.)
I understood from the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury that this Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall would be equally well raised on the Vote for the Post Office as on the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair. I think the right hon. Gentleman suggested a reasonable course, because the hon. Member who intends to bring on the Motion does not feel disposed to proceed with it at this hour. He wishes to bring it on at a time when it can be properly discussed in a full House. If the Motion were discussed to-night, the debate would not be reported in tomorrow's papers. I know nothing about the merits of the case between the right 457 hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General and Mr. Stephenson Blackwood. I have no sympathy for Mr. Blackwood. I know nothing about him, and I care nothing about him; but I remember the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General in the position you now fill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I must say that, as far as my memory serves me, I have not since seen anyone in that position who filled the Office with more ability. Under the circumstances, without prejudging the case against the right hon. Gentleman, I must say I think it is too late to bring the Motion forward. It is unreasonable to expect a new question to be discussed at 20 minutes after 1 o'clock in the morning, and I do not think we should be asked to make arrangements to suit such a condition of things. I would in all cases protest against it. One reason why I would like to see the matter disposed of is that I now see the hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Gedge) in his place, and we may have an opportunity of raising the question of jury-packing in Ireland, which is involved in a Motion he has on the Paper. I have a very strong opinion that the hon. and learned Member would quite as soon not bring forward the Motion at all. If the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall (Mr. Conybeare) is forced to go on with his Motion, the probability is that many hon. Gentlemen will leave the House, and that there will be few remaining to listen to the debate on the subject of jury-packing in Ireland.

§ MR. CONYBEARE
rose to address the House.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER
The hon. Member has already spoken.

§ MR. STOREY (Sunderland)
then rose.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER
And the hon. Member for Sunderland seconded the Motion.

§ MR. STOREY
As a matter of fact, Sir, I did not second the Motion.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER
Then I call upon Mr. Storey.

§ MR. STOREY
Sir, I make no secret of the fact that a Member of the Government just now said privately to me—"I thought you never did it." I freely admit I never do it; but I repeat what I said about 10 minutes ago, that at 1 o'clock in the morning I am an Obstructionist. I entirely object—my physical state compels me to object—to sit here after this hour of the morning. I am willing to do the work that my constituents send me to do; but since the moment I came into the House I have never, except on extreme occasions, sat in the House to late hours. I cannot do it. [An hon. MEMBER: Then go home.] An hon. Member opposite says to me, "Go home;" but I humbly submit to the Conservative Party that that is not exactly what we want in this House. What we want is a temperate expression of opinion from all sides of the House. I do not often trouble the House; but I am bound to say I have consistently objected to the continual attempt to bear down any minority by the power of a majority at half-past 1 o'clock in the morning. I do not insist upon it; but I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House (Mr. W. H. Smith), as one common-sense man to another, to consent now, at half-past 1 o'clock in the morning, and especially in view of the fact that even if the Motion of the hon. Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall be disposed of, there is at least one other Motion on the Paper of very considerable importance, which will occupy the attention of many hon. Gentlemen from Ireland for several hours, to the Motion which I now make, that this House do now adjourn.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)
The hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Storey) has made an appeal to me which I shall not resist. It is clear to the House that the Government, at all events, have been anxious to make progress with Public Business. The Government are always anxious to make progress, and I am sure hon. Gentlemen "who have been present throughout the evening, as I have been, 459 with the exception of one hour, must be aware that greater progress might have been made this evening than has been made. We have recorded our protest. We think it our duty to do the best we can to forward Public Business; we have been prevented from forwarding Public Business; we have made our protest; and if the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Storey) will withdraw the Motion for the adjournment of the House, I will withdraw the Motion that the Deputy Speaker do leave the Chair.

§ "MR. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr)
I only wish to make one remark in reply to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith). I wished to make some observations earlier this evening; but, seeing that the question was being fully discussed, I abstained from doing so, and I believe other hon. Members did the same. The right hon. Gentleman has said that the Motion I intended to bring forward was one which might just as well be discussed on the Estimates. I differ from the Leader of the House. If I were to open up the question which I have to open up in the course of the discussion on the Estimates it would not receive the slightest notice outside the House. I wish to make the Motion I have put upon the Paper in order to draw public attention to what I consider a scandalous matter. I do not wish to continue the discussion now, but merely to express my obligation to the right hon. Gentleman for the concession he has made.

§ MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.)
We have had a lecture from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith); and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sunder-land (Mr. Storey) has spoken about the common sense of the right hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman might have said that common sense was very commonplace. The right hon. Gentleman will not clôture us to-night, but will reserve that for another night.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)
I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will profit by the lesson which he has been taught. He has not got his "Six Hundred" present.

§ MR. STOREY
In asking leave to withdraw my Motion I wish to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in accepting my proposition.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
I beg to withdraw the Motion that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, do now leave the Chair.

§ MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Camborne)
I desire to thank the Government for their courtesy in acceding to our request, and to assure them that what they have in view—namely, the promotion of Public Business—we have in view also. If my Motion had come on at this early hour of the morning I should have felt obliged to take the opportunity of reproducing the whole question on some more favourable occasion, so that the House would have had to listen twice to what I have to say.