§ (15.) £61,600, to complete the sum for Medicines and Medical Stores, &c.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)Upon this Vote I desire to ask some explanation from the Government of a small matter that is connected with the appropriation in aid. If the soldiers and sailors in the Army and Navy are invalided, if they are rendered unfit for duty by causes which result in and from the Service, they are mulcted of their pay. It is very unfair that they should be so mulcted. When a sailor, from exposure to weather, from such causes as the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Charles Beresford)d welt upon yesterday, is broken down in health, and has to go to the hospital, is broken down by reason of his services and only by reason of his services, it is very unfair that he should be deprived of his pay. If a soldier or sailor brings on illness, whether it be delirium tremens or any other form of sickness incurred through his own misconduct, he is liable to have his pay stopped altogether. That is only fair and reasonable, because if he renders himself unfit for duty he has no claim to the pay which attaches to duty; but when a man is, by reason of his fidelity to duty, and by reason of circumstances over which he has no control, and in consequences of services, become invalided and obliged to go to hospital for a week or a month, or it may be for six months, I say that man has a right to receive his pay without any deductions at all in the shape of hospital stoppages, or, at any rate, the hospital stoppages should not amount to more than he would have to pay for rations if he were out of hospital and on active service. What I submit to the noble Lord (Lord George Hamilton) in charge of this Vote is that in future there should be by Warrant, or by whatever the official instrument may be, a regulation made by which invalided soldiers shall be entitled to receive their hospital treatment without any further hospital stoppages than would amount to the sum they would 1847 have stopped from their pay in case they were not in hospital.
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON) (Middlesex, Ealing)The point which the hon. Gentleman has raised is one which I am bound to say I have not looked into, though I know the general operation is very much as he has stated. Of course, if any alteration is made it will result in an increased Vote, and that is rather a serious matter. I will look into the matter, and between now and Report obtain the information that will enable me to give the hon. Gentleman an answer.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORWill the noble Lord be good enough to go further, and use his influence with the War Office to secure that a similar system will be adopted in the Army Service as in the Navy Service, and that soldiers shall not be mulcted of their pay for hospital stoppages if their sickness is due from the service?
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (16.) £134,700, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Services.
§ MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W., and Sligo, S.)I wish to call the attention of the Committee to the case of the widow of a man named Patrick Hooper, who served for many years in the Royal Navy and died from a complaint accelerated by injuries he received whilst in the performance of his duties. He was injured in 1866; again in July 1884 he received another injury to the left side which incapacitated him; and in the following January he died. I have here a medical certificate as to the cause of the man's decease in which the medical gentleman states what was the direct cause of death, but points out that the ailment was rendered fatal by the injuries the man had received from accidents which had occurred to him whilst in the performance of his duty. The Regulations affecting allowances to widows and children of deceased sailors set forth that assistance is to be rendered in cases where death results from accidents or from the effects of injuries caused by accidents which are met with whilst in the execution of duty. The wife of the man to whom I refer wrote to the Admiralty asking for some allowance, but was told that the circumstances attending her husband's death did not entitle 1848 her to a grant from the Greenwich Hospital Fund. I am not expert enough in the matter of these Regulations to say that this decision was incorrect; but I do contend that when a man has served for years in the Navy, has earned both the long service and the good conduct medals, and has received injuries in the Service which has accelerated his death, his widow and children are entitled to some assistance from the Admiralty. The man leaves behind him a wife and seven children, five of whom are under 14 years of age. The widow has never even received the gratuity to which she is entitled on account of the good conduct medal. I appeal to the First Lord of the Admiralty to say whether or not this woman should receive the Greenwich Hospital pension, and to say whether the case is not one which should be dealt with in a generous spirit.
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON) (Middlesex, Ealing)If the hon. Member will be good enough to send the particulars of the case, I will make a careful inquiry into the matter; but I could not say off-hand that the widow ought or ought not to receive a pension. I do not know the man's age, or the Rules of that branch of the Service in which he was engaged at the time of his death. I do not know on what ground a pension was refused to the widow—whether or not it was that the cause of death did not justify the grant. Last year there were two cases decided in which it was considered that too technical a construction had been put upon the Regulations relating to cause of death, and I directed that pensions should be paid to the widows. I should be glad to do what is right in the case to which the hon. Gentleman draws my attention; but, of course, I cannot give an answer to his question off-hand. If he will allow me the use of the papers bearing on the case I will inquire into it, and shall be in a position to make a statement with regard to it to-morrow on Report of Supply.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)I wish to draw the attention of the noble Lord to the subject of the Cork Sailors' Home. I may say that I did not know the Vote was coming on, and, consequently, am unprepared with certain documents which I had intended to use, and which would have enabled me to 1849 put the case clearly before the noble Lord. Ten years ago, the Cork Sailors' Home received from the Admiralty a grant of £100. Of course, the numbers who made use of the Home were greater than they have been since—or up to quite recently. Being situated in a very central position in the port of Cork, it is naturally made use of by a large number of merchant seamen. It was established, like similar institutions throughout the United Kingdom, for the accommodation of seamen who happened to be on shore, and to save them from the lodging-house keepers who had been in the habit of treating them almost as sharks treat small fish. Well, this Cork Sailors' Home, owing to the admirable work it did, was granted first £50, then £75, then the grant was increased from £75 to £100. Subsequently, however, another Sailors' Homo was started in the port of Queenstown; and, naturally enough, the sailors who happened to be at Queenstown on board the flagship made use of it every time they went on shore, and, of course, their names were taken down as having been in it. In that way this Home was able to show a very large list of men of the Royal Navy having been to it, and, as time went on, owing to the efforts of some very influential people in the district, and owing to what I do not care to go into—namely, the action of a gentleman who has since died—de mortuis nil nisi bonum—the Sailors' Home at Queenstown advanced at the expense of the institution at Cork. The grant to the Cork Home was cut down to £75, from that to £50, and from that again to £25. Now, I desire to draw attention to this matter. Unfortunately, in Ireland, where money is scarce, charitable institutions are proportionately scarce. I am certain that every one in the House who knows anything at all of the subject will bear me out that these Sailors' Homes are very valuable institutions, and that they ought to be supported as far as we possibly can support them. I happen to have been Secretary to the Cork Sailors' Home for about a year and a-half; therefore, I know something about that establishment, and feel very much for it in regard to the way it has unfortunately gone down. The greater part of the money formerly granted to the Cork Sailors' Home has been taken from that insti- 1850 tution and given to the Queenstown Home. I can produce Returns from the Cork Home to show clearly and conclusively and distinctly the number of sailors belonging to the Merchant Service who frequent it, and the number who frequent the Queenstown Home; and it will be found that the majority go to the former institution, because it is situated in the city of Cork, where the men have the Board of Trade offices, and where they can more easily ship on board vessels that sail from the port of Cork. I should be able to show the Committee, if I had the documents to which I have referred with me, that if you made an increased grant to the Cork Sailors' Home—if it were only £25 per annum, and you might divide £50 between the two institutions—you would be doing an act of charity and conferring a great benefit on the men of both the Merchant Service and Her Majesty's Navy. The number of sailors belonging to the Royal Navy who have passed through the city of Cork recently—that is to say, since the Channel Fleet went to Bantry Bay to perform their annual evolutions—has been very great indeed. Last year no less than 400 of these men passed through the city, the greater part of them obtaining accommodation in the Sailors' Home; and I feel perfectly confident that if the noble Lord (Lord George Hamilton) will only look into the matter he will be able to recommend the Admiralty to give us that increased support which is absolutely necessary for the success of the Home. I would ask the noble Lord to discount the utterances which have from time to time been given forth to the detriment of the Cork Home. Unfortunately, as I have said, there were in the past many faults to be found with the establishment, owing to the action of a gentleman who is no longer living; but, at the same time, I think that if the noble Lord were to listen to what the late Admiral Commander- in- Chief on that Station said about the Home, and to what the present Admiral at Queenstown has said, he would have no hesitation in advising the Admiralty to bestow an increased grant upon the Cork Sailors' Home.
§ MR. PENROSE-FITZGERALD (Cambridge)I think I can, perhaps, more or less, answer the observations of the hon. Gentleman opposite, with regard to these 1851 two Sailors' Homes, without making any very lengthened remarks. I am happy to be able to inform the Committtee that there is at the present moment a scheme on foot for amalgamating the two Homes, and I am sure that in the endeavour to promote that scheme we shall have the advantage of the assistance of the hon. Member himself, who has already taken deep interest in the Cork Sailors' Home. I need not go into details with regard to these Homes. They are both admirable institutions, and I only hope that they will be amalgamated under one Committee, and that every effort will be made to put an end to the spirit of rivalry and competition which has taken place between them. If we should be able to bring about this amicable settlement, we shall then be in a position to arrive at a distinct understanding as to the manner in which the Government grants should be bestowed.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)I quite understand what the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Fitzgerald) has stated. I am aware that he has taken a great deal of interest in the Queenstown Sailors' Home, against which I should be loth to say a we rd. All these institutions are worthy of support. But what I am anxious to impress upon the noble Lord is—and I feel certain that the hon. Member will agree with me—that the Cork Sailors' Home is more fitted for sailors of the Mercantile Marine than the Queenstown Home, which is more patronized and taken advantage of by the sailors in Her Majesty's Service. The scheme the hon. Member opposite refers to has often been brought forward; but, unfortunately, while plans of this kind are being considered, these institutions are suffering. If the noble Lord would allow me, I certainly would suggest that until some raison d'être has been arrived at an equal grant of £50 should be made to each of these institutions.
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON) (Middlesex, Ealing)I think it is unnecessary for me to take any part in this discussion, seeing that the observations of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Dr. Tanner) have already been answered by the hon. Gentleman behind me (Mr. Fitzgerald). The Admiralty have only a certain sum at their disposal for the maintenance of Sailors' Homes, which, I believe, were 1852 originally established for the benefit of the men of the Royal Navy, and they are obliged to distribute that as best they can. I observe that it is because the sailors daily make more use of the Home at Queenstown than of that at Cork that a larger sum is paid to the former than to the latter. I trust that that which I hear as probable will come about, and that the two institutions will be amalgamated. In this way all dispute as to the relative merits of the two institutions would cease. The amount then paid to the institutions would be in one sum, and, the administration and other arrangements being amalgamated, the united institutions would be on a much better footing than they are now. I cannot undertake to give more money to these institutions than is provided for in the Estimate. It would not be in my power to do so. We are limited to the sum in the Estimate.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid.)I think the noble Lord is in error in imagining that the Sailors' Homes throughout the country were instituted for the benefit of the men of the Royal Navy; on the contrary, I think, if the noble Lord will go into the history of these establishments, he will find that they were started by merchants in Liverpool for the benefit of the sailors of the Mercantile Marine, and were at first maintained wholly by the subscriptions raised in the country. Then the Government granted them allowances. If the noble Lord will allow me to say so, I think he will find that he is mistaken in his idea as to the origin of these Homes. With regard to the matter to which I have already directed his attention, if he will compare these two Homes, he will see that the one at Cork ought to be supported. I know that a dead set has been made against the Cork Home—and whilst I am on my legs I will say what is in my mind on this subject. The Cork Home was an institution, supported by the citizens of Cork. An aristocratic clique living in the vicinity of Queenstown were not satisfied unless they got the matter all their own way. They started a little arrangement, got the support of the Admiral and some of the naval officers in Queenstown, and then said—"We will smash down the Cork Sailors' Home." They have done their best to carry out that declaration. They have not exactly smashed down the Cork Home yet; but I think that 1853 when an injustice is being perpetrated by an aristocratic clique of landlords—some broken-down, landlords and some rich ones, all of whom I cannot describe as gentlemen—the Government should come to the rescue of the victims of this injustice. I submit that these aristocratic gentlemen are endeavouring to do harm to a charity in order to enhance their own position and purchase cheap popularity. [A laugh.] Of course, the hon. Gentleman opposite laughs; he is distinguished for his sneering and laughter in the course of these debates; but I trust he will restrain himself whilst the particular subjects of these Homes for the sailors of the Mercantile Marine and Royal Navy are on the tapis. I really think that if the noble Lord and Her Majesty's Government will go carefully into the matter they will see that it is wrong to give State aid to enable gentlemen to feather their twopennyhalfpenny—
§ DR. TANNERI thought I was talking about the Sailors' Home.
§ DR. TANNERIf the noble Lord will go into the merits of the case and see the way in which this dispute was brought about between the two Sailors' Homes, I feel perfectly confident that he will make the Cork Home the grant that was made in the past—namely, £100 per annum. As I have said, it was cut down from £100 to £75; it was further reduced from £75 to £50; and then, finally, it was cut down to £25; and that was done by a certain clique for a certain purpose.
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is still wandering from the subject of the Vote. The rivalry between two Sailors' Homes is not the matter under the consideration of the Committee.
§ DR. TANNERI am endeavouring to deal with the subject before the Committee, and to give reasons why the Vote should be increased. I will, however, bow to the Chair. I sincerely trust that the noble Lord, having heard what I have said, and having read the documents which I shall be happy to furnish him with, will take the side of justice and truth, and will grant the Cork Sailors' Home, if not the original amount, at least £50 per annum.
§ MR. DEASY (Mayo, W.)As I have for the last couple of years had occasion to consider this subject, I desire to say a word or two with regard to it. I do not wish to enter into the question of the rival merits of these Homes—though I may have my own opinion on that matter—or into the grant, or part of the grant, having been withdrawn from the Cork Sailors' Home; but unless a satisfactory answer is given by the noble Lord (Lord George Hamilton) on the subject, if my hon. Friend persists in demanding favourable consideration for it, and feels it his duty to bring it before the House on the Report stage, I shall give him my cordial support. I think great injustice has been done to the Cork Institution. I have gone into the matter very closely; and though I have no interest in either one Home or the other, I think the noble Lord ought to decide in favour of the claims of the Cork Home, as against those of the Queenstown Establishment, because Cork is a great centre for sailors, whether they belong to Her Majesty's Navy or to the Merchant Service, and it is the place they are most likely to go to when they want shelter. I think, if the noble Lord will only give close attention to the facts of the case, he will be disposed to alter the opinion he seems to have formed on the statement of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge (Mr. Fitzgerald), who is himself a Queenstown man, and is, therefore, prejudiced in favour of the Queenstown Home. I believe that hon. Member would do nothing unfair, but it is certain that on account of his connection with Queenstown, he is anxious to do all he can for the Home there, and has not the same regard for the institution at Cork. The noble Lord has formed his opinion upon the statement of that hon. Member. I do not at all object to the spirit of the hon. Member's speech, and, so far as I am concerned, I am extremely anxious that the quarrel between the rival Homes should come to an end, and that a satisfactory arrangement should be arrived at. I believe the arrangement referred to by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) would be a satisfactory settlement of the dispute that has been carried on now for some years; but, in the meantime, I would suggest that the request made by my hon. Friend (Dr. Tanner) should be 1855 favourably considered by the noble Lord, because it is really a matter of serious importance to the sailors that the Cork Sailors' Home should be conducted in such a manner as to be valuable to those people who from time to time find themselves obliged to apply to it. If the facts are given to him by my hon. Friend, I hope the noble Lord will be prepared to consider the matter.
§ LORD GEORGE HAMILTONI have already stated the principle on which the distribution of this money is made. It was formerly paid to the Sailors' Homes in the interests of the men in Her Majesty's Navy. If it is true that a larger number of sailors make use of one of the Homes to which reference has been made, than make use of the other, no doubt it is right that an attempt should be made to do justice between the two.
DR. TANNERt (Cork, Co., Mid)The noble Lord will pardon me—["Divide!"]—I rise to make an explanation—will the noble Lord go carefully through the figures in the case of each Home, and in doing so will he make sure that the figures furnished by the authorities of the Queenstown Home represent the number of men bonâ fide dwelling and sleeping in the Sailor's Home for the night, just as the figures from the Cork Home represent the number of men who have entered the establishment and remained in it for the night? I hope he will make sure that he does not count as persons really using the Home the "shore men," commonly so-called, who come in on tramp from the Guard Ship, wash their hands and comb their hair and go out again. Such men as these are entered on the books of the Queenstown Home, and such entry, unfortunately, gives rise to a great deal of ill feeling on the subject. I sincerely hope that the noble Lord on this occasion will grant us what we ask.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
§ Committee to sit again To-morrow.