SUPPLY.—REPORT. (Hansard, 7 September 1886)

§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)
I regret, Sir, I was not present last evening when this Vote was taken, for I had intended to call the attention of the House to the fact that there happens to be two chaplains doing duty in Cork, and that they drew £594 per annum. On reference to Thom's Almanac, I find there are three chaplains at Cork, and I gather that one of them is not paid. I cannot help thinking that as regards pay there ought not to be any distinctions drawn between these chaplains—that, in fact, they ought to receive equal pay. The garrison chaplain, or the Church of England chaplain, has very many advantages that do not fall to the lot of the Roman Catholic chaplain. The latter lives down in the town, he has a long distance to go in all kinds of weather to his duties; indeed, his position is most unsatisfactory, and I trust the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War will endeavour to find a remedy. I had intended to move to reduce the Vote, and to take a division; but I will leave the matter to the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman, in the hope that he will see justice is done. It must be borne in mind that there is a large percentage of Irish soldiers in the Army, and that a very large majority of them are Catholics. It therefore follows that the Catholic chap- 1603 lains have a considerable amount of work to do, more, indeed, than it is generally thought they have. If they have considerable work to do they should be paid for it, and they should be granted all the advantages which are afforded to other chaplains. Sub-head D relates to payments for buildings for Divine Service. My original intention was to move the reduction of the Vote by £320, that being the amount proposed to be granted for this purpose. My reason was that, as a rule, the only churches to be maintained are Protestant churches. I think it is very wrong and foolish to make invidious distinctions. We know that at large stations, notably at camps like the Curragh and Aldershot, where there are large numbers of soldiers, it becomes necessary that a building should be put up for all religions. Usually a large building, resembling very much a large barn, is erected, and at one time the service of the Church of England is conducted in it, at another time the service of the Presbyterian Church, and at another time the service of the Roman Catholic Church. Such a course may suit soldiers, but it appears to be a very crude and rough way of arranging for Divine Service, and therefore I think the right hon. Gentleman might take this point into careful consideration. Again, there is another point I should like to call attention to, and that is that in the Cork district there is no payment for buildings for the Catholic service, although every Sunday sittings are reserved for soldiers at a mass in one of the Catholic churches of the city. This is certainly not a generous way of dealing with the matter. While the Protestant soldiers have got a church of their own in the barracks, the Catholics and the Presbyterians have to go down the town at great inconvenience to themselves. The Government maintain the Protestant church, but they do nothing towards the maintenance of the Catholic and Presbyterian places of worship, though they take advantage of their existence. This is manifestly unfair, and I think it would be very reprehensive in me if I did not bring the present state of things to the notice of the Committee.

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster)
I have listened with attention to the remarks of the hon. Gentleman, 1604 and I cannot help thinking that he has been somewhat misinformed. He asks for certain generosity of treatment. Well, but generosity of treatment involves a considerable addition to the charge for the Public Service. I shall endeavour that there shall be justice done in all cases. I believe there is equality of treatment at the present moment. [Dr. TANNER: No.] Well, I think there is. The hon. Gentleman has made some remarks with regard to the buildings in which Divine Service is held. I am afraid it is not possible to provide Roman Catholic and Presbyterian and Wesleyan Methodist and other chapels in connection with every barracks.

§ DR. TANNER
I did not mention the minor sects. ["Oh!"] I believe I am perfectly justified in speaking of the sects other than those I have specified as the minor sects. It is only necessary to call attention to the treatment of the larger denominations.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
I stated that I have the strongest desire to do justice all round.

§ DR. TANNER
May I ask whether the Presbyterian chaplain—

§ MR. SPEAKER
The hon. Gentleman has already spoken.

MR. A. L. BROWN (Hawick, &c.)
As I have not spoken upon the Estimates, perhaps the House will allow me to call its attention to what I consider a question of considerable importance. The Director of the Clothing Establishment is in receipt of a salary of £1,200 a-year, and he is required to pass material to the value of £1,500,000. I maintain it is perfectly impossible to get a man for such a salary who is capable of passing satisfactorily such a large quantity of material. Manufacturers and others who tender for the Army work find that things do not go on satisfactorily. The complaint which we manu- 1605 facturers bring against the Department is this—that, under the present system, our soldiers do not get proper clothing, durable clothing, or satisfactory clothing in any sense of the word. The matter is of such importance to so many hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite who, I suppose, take an interest in their men, that they will, I am sure, pay some attention to what I have to say. I should like the House to understand what manufacturers are required to do in regard to the sending in of samples. Some samples have been obtained by the Department, I do not know how many years ago, and they are sent down to some central place. Manufacturers are asked to go to the place, examine the samples, and make clothes according to the samples. Now, I want to point out that by this means the Department is wholly debarred from getting the advantage of new makes in clothing, both as to durability, colour, wear, and cheapness; and what I suggest the Department should do is that they should see that the heads of Departments are men thoroughly acquainted with the technicalities of clothing, so that they may be more competent to judge of the merits of the clothing submitted to them than they are at present. We all get great advantage by new makes. Cloth which eight years ago was used for dress coats and dress trousers is totally discarded now, simply because far better makes have come in. The Department is totally unable to get the advantage of the new makes under the present system. I trust the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War will inquire whether the heads of the Department are thoroughly up to the work of testing cloth. Our soldiers and sailors will never be well clothed unless the heads of the Department thoroughly understand the cloth which is submitted to them by manufacturers. The country must pay for efficiency, and I hold that a man who is capable of passing properly material to the value of £1,500,000 cannot be obtained for a salary of £1,200 a-year; and I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not possible for him to see that the Service is better served than it is at present?

§ THE SURVEYOR GENERAL OF ORDNANCE (Mr. NORTHCOTE) (Exeter)
The hon. Gentleman says it is impossible for the Director of Clothing to 1606 pass the whole of the garments; but I must point out that the Director of Clothing is assisted by a very considerable staff.

MR. A. L. BROWN
What I wished to convey was that the heads of the Department should be thoroughly responsible. Everyone who is concerned in clothing knows that it requires one thoroughly practical man to pass everything.

§ MR. NORTHCOTE
The Director of Clothing is thoroughly responsible in this sense—that if any bad material is passed the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State will hold him responsible. With respect to the question of supplying proper samples to the trade, I may remind the hon. Gentleman that I have myself, since coming into Office, taken steps to secure that all samples of cloths shall be sent over to Dublin in order to give the Irish manufacturers as fair a chance as possible of competing. [A laugh.] I will only say to the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Border Burghs, that though I am extremely anxious to do justice to the Irish manufacturers, I am equally desirous to show the same justice to Scotland.

§ MR. J. O'CONNOR (Tipperary, S.)
I desire to thank the Surveyor General of Ordnance for the slip of the tongue by which he conveyed the information that the Irish manufacturers are to be benefited; I trust he will carry out his professions in the same honest spirit that seems to have characterized his utterances in this House since he took Office. But with regard to the matter raised by the hon. Member for the Border Burghs (Mr. A. L. Brown), I have to say that I am inclined to treat the Director of Clothing in an entirely different manner to that proposed by the hon. Gentleman. I think the Director of Clothing is paid quite sufficient. He is a man above reproach, I will admit; but the Surveyor General of Ordnance said he was ably assisted by a staff. I suppose the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Northcote) is aware that four members of this staff have been found guilty of bribery. ["Oh!"] Well, they have been charged with bribery, and, if the charges have not been sustained, the gentlemen have been called upon to resign their positions. Sir, the Director of Clothing is a gentleman who, as I have said, is above reproach; nay, he is more than, above 1607 reproach, he is even above this House, for he sets at defiance the orders given by the Treasury Bench. I stated here last night, in the course of the discussion upon this Estimate, that the Vote given by this House in respect to contracts is not acted upon, and that the sum voted by the House is not always applied to the purpose for which it is voted. For this the gentleman whose salary the hon. Member (Mr. A. L. Brown) proposes to increase is responsible.