HC Deb 31 May 1886 vol 306 cc591-611

Qualifying Examinations.

Clause 2 (Examination before registration) agreed to.

Clause 3 (Qualifying examinations held by medical authorities).

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR) (Leeds, S.)

I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, lines 19 and 20, to leave out "for the time being capable of granting any such diploma or diplomas," and insert "or any medical corporation legally qualified at the passing of this Act, to grant such diploma or diplomas in respect of medicine and surgery."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

SIR HENRY HOLLAND (Hampstead)

This, practically, is only an enlargement of the Amendment I have put on the Paper.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, line 23, after "examination," insert "in medicine, surgery, and midwifery, and of whom one at least is capable of granting such diploma as aforesaid in respect of medicine, and one at least is capable of granting such diploma in respect of surgery."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

DR. O'DOHERTY (Meath, N.)

I have put upon the Paper several Amendments to this clause; but I was not aware the Bill would be brought on to-night, and therefore I am not quite prepared, to proceed with them. The Bill has been brought on unexpectedly, and therefore I ask the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair) to postpone the consideration of the clause.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 3, leave out "at," and insert "for."—(Dr. O'Doherty.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'at' stand part of the Clause."

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

This, the first Amendment, bears upon all the Amendments the hon. Gentleman suggests. It would be quite impossible to accept these Amendments, because they affect the principle of the Bill. This Bill differs from any of the 22 Bills which have been introduced with the object of reforming the Medical Laws. The qualifying examination will be, I hope, the maximum, and not the minimum; and the Amendments of the hon. Gentleman (Dr. O'Doherty) indicate the minimum standard of education in each part of the Kingdom. I am sorry I cannot agree to them.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 10, leave out "with the sanction of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Withdrawal from medical authorities of right to hold qualifying examinations).

SIR HENRY HOLLAND (Hampstead)

The object of this Amendment——

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR) (Leeds, S.)

My right hon. Friend (Sir Henry Holland) proposes to amend the clause by a provision that the Privy Council shall not, "of their own motion," have power to revoke an Order. I am obliged to take the wind out of his sails, because I have Amendments, not on the Paper, which relate to a previous part of the clause. I propose to leave out the words in lines 39, 40, and 41— The Privy Council, upon the representation of the General Council, or of their own motion, and to insert in their place— Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do.

Amendment proposed, In page 2, lines 39, 40, and 41, leave out "the Privy Council, upon the representation of the General Council, or of their own motion," and insert "Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

My objection is to the Privy Council having the power of themselves at any time to revoke an Order. The whole point of the section is the power given to the General Council. Why the Privy Council, upon their own motion, shall have power to revoke an Order is a point I do not understand, and it is very much objected to. I therefore intended to move to leave out the words "of their own motion." The Privy Council should certainly have the power to take this action upon the representation of the General Council, but not without it.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

The Amendment does not appear on the Paper; perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain why he proposes it.

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

I am afraid the words I propose are not fairly understood. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Henry Holland) will find them in the 1st clause of the Act of 1858. The General Council is to move on its own representation. The words are— Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do. First of all, the General Council is to make representation, and it is not upon Her mere motion that Her Majesty revokes the Order, but she does so in Council.

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain the words "or otherwise." If he would leave out these words I should be quite prepared to accept the Amendment.

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

I cannot do that, because then there would be no appeal. It is right that the Corporation or University from which representation is taken away should have the power of appeal.

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

Would the right hon. Gentleman have any objection to substitute for "or otherwise" the words "or upon appeal?"

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

I will endeavour to meet the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman on Report.

Question put, and negatived.

Question, That the words, 'Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do,' be there inserted, —put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 (Qualifying examinations held by medical corporation with assistant examiners).

Amendment proposed, In page 3, line 15, after "examinations," insert "and the General Council are satisfied that the said medical corporation has used its best endeavours to enter into such combination as aforesaid, and is unable to do so on reasonable terms."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

DR. O'DOHERTY (Meath, N.)

Before passing this clause—

THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. COURTNEY) (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Order, order! The hon. Member proposes to move a new clause in substitution for Clause 5.

DR. O'DOHERTY

After Clause 4.

THE CHAIRMAN

It is a new clause, which must be taken at the end. If the hon. Gentleman objects to this clause, he must object to it when I put it to the Committee.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In page 3, lines 16 and 17, leave out "and subject to the sanction and control of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In page 3, lines 29 and 30, leave out "subject to the sanction and control of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed, In page 3, lines 36 and 37, leave out "with the sanction of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Motion made, and question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

DR. O'DOHERTY

I propose that this clause be omitted, and a new clause inserted in its place.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Gentleman will give his reasons why the clause should be omitted. The question of the substitution of a new clause will arise at the end.

DR. O'DOHERTY

The reason why I propose to leave out this clause is that, in my opinion, it does not meet the requirement it is intended to meet; that it will not prevent one or other of these Colleges refusing to join and take part in these examinations. On that account it will prevent the object of the Bill being effected. By the clause I suggest, however, the object of the measure will be much more effectually secured.

DR. KENNY (Cork, S.)

I also object to the clause, because, under it, it is quite possible for a powerful Corporation to very much oppress a weaker one. It is quite open to the College of Physicians in Dublin to refuse, if it chooses, to enter into an arrangement with the Apothecaries Hall. It would be utterly and entirely destructive of the object the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair) has in view in bringing forward this Bill—namely, the development of medical science, if there were refusals to take part in the examinations. The clause, as it stands, will, I am persuaded, open the door to a great number of abuses.

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

I am sure the hon. Members from Ireland themselves will be very much disappointed if this clause is rejected. Of course, we know that in Ireland there is a Body called the Apothecaries Company. That Body may, or may not, be taken in combination with other objects; but this clause gives power to the General Council to act in such a case. I think it would be better if the hon. Gentleman (Dr. O'Doherty) allowed the clause to pass, and moved on Report, or at the end of the Committee, some words which would strengthen the compulsory powers, but which words, I must tell him, I would resist. I think he himself would be exceedingly disappointed if this clause were to be omitted.

DR. KENNY

I do not think that the clause in any way carries out the argument of the right hon. Gentleman. It appears to me that the appointment of the Examiners will be destructive to the Local Bodies, which will have to fall back even to a lower level than they stand at the present time. The object of the right hon. Gentleman is to elevate these Local Bodies; but I am positive that the clause appointing the Examiners will have the opposite effect. If my hon. Friend moves his Amendment on Report the right hon. Gentleman will oppose it; and that I feel certain is sufficient reason for us to press on the proposal to eliminate this clause at the present stage of the Bill. Considering the lateness of the hour and the importance of the clause, I beg to move, Sir, that you now report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Dr. Kenny.)

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

I hope the hon. Member will not press his Motion to report Progress. There is really no opposition to the Bill. All the Corporations and Universities in the Kingdom approve of the Bill, and wish to see it pass; and, considering the present critical times, what chance is there of the Bill being carried to a successful conclusion if unnecessary delays now take place? Since 1870 there have been no fewer than 22 Bills on this subject, all of which have been strongly opposed. The present measure is not opposed to any extent. All the Medical Corporations and all the Universities have written to me suggesting alterations, many of which I have been pleased to adopt. I hope the Motion to report Progress will not be persisted in.

DR. FOSTER (Chester)

I hope the hon. Member for South Cork will not press this Motion. Although we members of the Medical Profession regard the Bill as a small one, still it contains some principles which are dear to us; and we look upon it as an important measure, which will confer good upon the public at large, and we hope to see it become law. I trust that the hon. Member will withdraw his Motion.

DR. KENNY

The right hon. Gentleman says that no opposition has come to this Bill from any of the Medical Corporations; that is quite true. I believe these Bodies generally look on the measure as a preservation of their rights and privileges; but I entertain very serious objection to the Bill, because I think that it does not treat the Profession at large with any fairness at all. The provision for giving representation on the Medical Council is utterly inadequate. I am not here to speak on behalf of any Corporation, but for the Profession at large, and for the public, who have still a larger interest in any questions affecting the Medical Profession, and the provisions for whose protection are entirely illusory. I am afraid that I cannot yield to the hon. Member (Dr. Foster), who has just suggested that I should withdraw my Motion for reporting Progress. If I receive any assurance from the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair) that later on a better representation of the Profession at large will be provided for in the Bill I will withdraw the Motion; but from what I have heard, and from what has already taken place, I fear there is no prospect of any such assurance being given.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

I would appeal to my hon. Friend (Dr. Kenny) to withdraw his Motion. As far as I can understand it, although the Bill does not go far enough, it seems to meet the crying grievances which have existed in the Profession for years. I would point out to my hon. Friend that he will have an opportunity of raising the point at issue at a later stage of the Bill, and that an Amendment is on the Paper dealing with the point in which he is interested. I would earnestly urge him to withdraw his Motion, and bring his recommendations up at a later period.

DR. KENNY

Under the circumstances, Sir, I beg to withdraw my Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Effect of Registration.

Clause 6 (Privileges of registered persons) agreed to.

Constitution of General Council.

Clause 7 (Members of General Council).

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR)

I beg to move, as an Amendment, in page 4, line 17, to leave out "six" and insert "five."

Question, "That the word 'six' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That the word 'five' be there inserted."

DR. FOSTER (Chester)

I beg to move, as an Amendment, that the word "four" be there inserted. I would point out that these six nominees of the Crown were originally placed on the Council in default of any representation being given to the Medical Profession; the argument used when the old Act was passed was that representation could not be given, as there was no register upon which representatives could be elected. We now think, however, that the time has come when the Profession can obtain substantial representation, and that we ought to have, at least, a majority of the minority of the Council. Under this Bill the majority will still be in the hands of the Corporations; but there will be 10 members independent of these Universities and Corporations, and I do not think it is unreasonable that the Profession should ask to have a representation of six members, and the Crown four. As I pointed out to the House on the second reading of this Bill, the vast majority of the Medical Profession reside in England; and, as I stated then, that constituency will be greatly unrepresented by only having two members on the Council. In order to increase this representation I propose to give four members instead of six to the Crown; and I think the House will see that the time has come when steps should be taken to prevent the continuance of the great disparity between the representatives of the Profession and the nominees of the Crown.

Amendment proposed, "That the word 'four' be there inserted."—(Dr. Foster.)

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

Everyone will admit that the Crown nominees have always been the most distinguished men of the Profession. They have represented the Medical Profession even more than the Corporations, and have adorned the Council to which they have been sent. I think that everyone will admit that. Although I am unwilling, therefore, to decrease the number of Crown nominees, still I was so struck by the observations of my hon. Friend (Dr. Foster) on the second reading, that I consented to sacrifice one of the Crown nominees, in order to give an additional representative to England, making five in all of the Profession, and I think my hon. Friend will consider that I have met him as far as possible. In this way no increase will be put upon the expenses of the Council, whose funds are only small, and who cannot afford to bear great expense. Under these circumstances I must adhere to the word "five."

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

I do not wish to prolong the debate, but I must say this. It is an exceptional thing for me to support Crown nominees; but I do think that under this Bill it is not well to give so large a representation to Corporations as compared with Crown nominees. I am inclined to agree with the right hon. Gentleman that these Crown nominees are amongst the most distinguished men in the Profession, and represent more fully the Medical Profession than the nominees of the Corporations; and, therefore, I shall support him.

DR. KENNY (Cork, S.)

I also am inclined to think that the Crown nominees are among the most distinguished men in the Profession; and I am much more disposed, later on, to move an increase of the representation of the Profession at large, than to move to decrease the number of the Crown nominees. No doubt, if we cannot give a better representation to the Profession at large later on, I should agree with the last Amendment, because the increase must come from somewhere; but I think it can be better met in another way. It seems to me that the proper course to pursue is, whilst we are grouping Medical Bodies in the country for the purposes of examinations, to do it also for purposes of representation. By that means we can leave the nominees of the Crown as they are, and give the Profession a much larger representation.

MR J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities)

I hope the Committee will accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Chester (Dr. Foster). I think it will be preferable that we should have on the Council only four members nominated by the Privy Council. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair), in the argument he brought forward in favour of having five Crown nominees, entirely ignored what all Members of the House will expect—namely, that although these Crown nominees may be among the most distinguished men in the Profession, it will be an extraordinary thing if, when the medical practitioners of the three countries have the opportunity of selecting gentlemen to represent them, they do not themselves select the most distinguished men in the Profession.

Amendment (Dr. Foster), by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (Sir Lyon Playfair) put, and agreed to.

SIR HENRY ROSCOE (Manchester, S.)

The object which I have in moving this Amendment—namely, in page 4, after line 27, insert, as new lines, "the Victoria University; the University of Durham" will be plain to the Committee. At the present moment the University of Durham has a representative on the Council; but the new University—the Victoria—has none, and under the Bill the two are to be amalgamated, and are only to have one representative between them. The Victoria University is a young and increasing University, whereas Durham is an old one. In fact, the two are of an entirely different character. The Victoria University has a well-equipped and numerously-attended Medical School, where the scientific education is of the highest kind. It includes the Owen's College, Manchester, and the University College, Liverpool, both containing flourishing Medical Schools, and it is hoped that in a short time the Leeds Medical School connected with the Yorkshire College will also become affiliated. We have, at the present moment, upwards of 500 students, who will form the bulk of the practising physicians and surgeons of the North of England; and I therefore think we deserve to have a representative of our own on the Council. Durham University is entirely removed from the centre of the Victoria University, and the appliances which it possesses for scientific education are decidedly inferior to those proposed by the younger University, which are of the most complete and most modern description; and, therefore, I have to move that Durham University and the Victoria University have each a representative on the Council.

Amendment proposed, In page 4, line 27, to leave out from the word "London," to the word "collectively," in line 29, in order to insert the words—"The Victoria University; The University of Durham."—(Sir Henry Roscoe.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

LORD FREDERICK HAMILTON (Manchester, S.W.)

I merely wish to corroborate what has fallen from the hon. Member for South Manchester (Sir Henry Roscoe), that the Victoria University is entitled by its importance to nominate a member of the Medical Council. It is entitled to that privilege by its importance, not merely because of the work done by it, but also from the fact that it is now the educational centre of the whole of the county of Lancashire and of the West Riding of Yorkshire. The system of education there is totally different to that given at the Durham University, and the classes from which the students are drawn are different. In fact, there is nothing in common between them, except that the students are drawn from the North of England; but even the geographical argument is not a strong one, for Durham is no nearer Manchester than Oxford. No one can contend that the addition of one member to the Medical Council can be a matter of material importance; and, looking at the growing importance of the Victoria University, I think the Amendment should be assented to.

MR. F. S. POWELL (Wigan)

I hope the Committee will allow me to say a word in support of this Amendment. I am quite certain that those who know what is going on in connection with the Educational Institutions of Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds will bear me out when I say that the University which is the centre of those Institutions is fully entitled to representation on the Medical Council. The Manchester Medical School has long been celebrated for its skill and knowledge, as also have those of Liverpool and Leeds; and I feel sure the Committee will consider they are entitled to representation. I think, also, that the University will grow rapidly year by year and become more powerful, and before long the number who belong to it will be very largely increased. Durham is not a sister University to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and I feel that any association between the Victoria University and the University of Durham would be valueless, inasmuch as the cause of those Universities would not be advanced by such union. I do not see how the two Universities could choose a member of the Council collectively. There seems to be a great technical difficulty which renders such collective action impracticable.

MR. RATHBONE (Carnarvonshire, Arfon)

I do not think I overrate the importance of these large Medical Schools of Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds when I say I think they are justly entitled to representation on the Medical Council.

DR. FOSTER (Chester)

With regard to the Amendment before the Committee, I would point out that the representation on the Medical Council is already considered too great by the Profession, by whose taxation that representation is entirely kept up, and yet we have an Amendment before us to increase that representation by adding a member for the Victoria University. The Victoria University is young, but it is a growing University, and when it has further developed it will, in my opinion, be quite time to give it a member in the Council. I am afraid, however, the Durham University is not growing; but, with regard to the Victoria University, I have no doubt that, at the proper time, it will have a member of its own.

DR. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.)

I think my hon. Friend (Sir Henry Roscoe) has made out a good case for the Victoria University having its own representative on the Medical Council. It is a young school, and it is doing good work. I propose to support the Amendment of my hon. Friend on selfish grounds, as I may have a similar proposal to make on behalf of the University of Aberdeen.

MR. WHITLEY (Liverpool, Everton)

I can bear my testimony to the fact that the Medical School of the Victoria University is doing very good work, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to the Amendment.

SIR LYON PLAYFAIR

I am bound, with regret, to oppose this Amendment, and if my hon. Friend goes to a division I shall be unable to vote with him. The Victoria University is a very promising one; but it is, nevertheless, in its infancy, and, although many are taught there, it has very few graduates. I beg to point out that the General Council, under Clause 10, has power to give separate representation to any University which supports its claim to such representation; and, therefore, I should not feel justified in voting for the Amendment of my hon. Friend, although, in view of the general feeling exhibited in favour of the proposal, I shall not join in opposition to it.

MR. JACKSON (Leeds, N.)

I am exceedingly glad to find that the right hon. Gentleman has gone so far to meet the general opinion of the Committee. As far as the Medical Profession of Leeds are concerned, they speak with a united voice on this subject, and entirely in accordance with the view of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Henry Roscoe).

SIR JOHN LUBBOCK (London University)

I confess that my vote on this Amendment would be a good deal influenced by the number of the constituency, as to which at present I have no knowledge. Perhaps some hon. Member authorized to speak on behalf of the Victoria University will give us information on that point. I should like to know, if we are to give representation to the Victoria University and the University of Durham, what would be the constituency in both cases?

DR. FOSTER (Chester)

I do not think there are more than 100 graduates of the Victoria University at the present time, and it would be hardly fair to give that small number the same representation as London University.

SIR HENRY ROSCOE

I would point out that the Governing Body of the Victoria University is a thoroughly representative one, and that the University Court would, in all probability, be the Elective Body by whom the representative would be chosen.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)

I think objection to this Amendment comes with a worse grace from the hon. Baronet the Member for London University (Sir John Lubbock) than from any Member of the House. He ought to recollect that there was a proposal included in the Reform Bill of Mr. Disraeli to unite Durham University with the University of London. ["No, no!"] The hon. Baronet contradicts me; but I followed the discussion in the House of Commons at the time closer, perhaps, than he did, and my recollection is perfectly clear upon the subject, and I remember that it was pointed out that to attach a young and growing University like that of London to a dying University like that of Durham, was an act similar to that of tying together a living person and a corpse. If that argument was good then it is good now, against joining Durham to other Medical Bodies. I repeat that the argument against the Amendment comes with a very bad grace from the hon. Baronet.

SIR JOHN LUBBOCK

The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) quite misunderstands what I said. I remarked that when it was proposed to give one Member to Victoria University and one to Durham, it was natural to ask to be informed how large were the constituencies they would represent. I have not made up my mind how I shall vote on this question, and it will greatly depend upon the information I may receive.

SIR JULIAN GOLDSMID (St. Pancras, S.)

I understand the hon. Baronet to say that he wishes to know, as I also should like to know, how many graduates there are at the two Universities in question? It is known that the number of undergraduates at Durham is very limited; and though the Victoria University is a growing institution, it is only growing in the sense in which a baby is said to grow, and I think the time has hardly arrived for giving it representation. In fact, I heard the other day that there are only 20 or 30 graduates.

MR. GIBSON (Liverpool, Walton)

The principle on which I think the Committee ought to act in this matter is that the interests of medical education in the North of England all converge towards the Victoria University. The medical men of Yorkshire and Lancashire are, I think, entitled to have a centre of their own, and that medical centre is the Victoria University, which is a growing Institution. She ought to have more representation than Durham; but, according to this Bill, a hybrid system of repre- sentation is sought to be established, and it is exceedingly difficult to understand what proportion of it each should take. I think it would be right for us to say that Victoria University should be represented. But we must not look alone at the interest of Universities; we must look to the interest of the Medical Profession in the North of England generally.

DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)

I must give this proposal my strongest opposition, because it embodies a principle which, in my opinion, is false to everything which this Bill is intended to effect. If we look into the proposal we shall see that the Committee is asked to extend to these two Universities increased representation; and it is very plain that, up to the present time, the Licensing Bodies have had too great power in their hands. If I understand the general tenour of the Bill, it is to take power in a great degree out of the hands of those Bodies and place it in those of a well-selected General Council. If we commence, at this early period of the discussion, to put on the Medical Council representatives of new Universities, what is there to prevent other hon. Gentlemen from standing up for their own Universities and small Medical Schools in other portions of the Kingdom? I say that the Amendment is false to the principle of the Bill, and certainly hope that it will be withdrawn.

SIR TREVOR LAWRENCE (Surrey, Reigate)

The objection which I have to the proposal is that it proposes to add to the Medical Council, which is too large already. There is a great disadvantage in having so many people to talk, and in the Medical Council already debates and discussions are carried on, the extreme length of which is a great impediment to business. It would be quite as reasonable for one of the great hospitals—St. Bartholomew's, for instance—to ask to have representation on the Council, as it would be for the Victoria University. I object to this proposal; in the first place, because it would increase the number of members of the Medical Council; and, in the next, because I think there are other Universities which have stronger claims.

Question put, and negatived.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 119, Noes 42: Majority 77.—(Div. List, No. 112.)

SIR HENRY ROSCOE (Manchester, S.)

I beg to move, as an Amendment in page 4, to leave out lines 28 and 29.

Question, "That lines 28 and 29, in page 4, stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

DR. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.)

After the division which has just taken place I rise with a light and cheerful heart to propose the Amendment which stands in my name; and I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will exhibit, for the old University of Aberdeen, a little of that affection which he has exhibited towards the young Victoria University. There is a very strong feeling in favour of this Amendment, which is as follows:—In page 4, after line 36, insert "The University of Aberdeen; the University of St. Andrew's." Although the actual population in the North of Scotland may be small, there is no doubt that all over the world you find Scottish graduates, and, as a general rule, you find them doing excellent work. We have heard just now that the Victoria University represents the medical education of the North of England. Well, Sir, the Aberdeen University represents the medical education of the North of Scotland. It has been growing rapidly during the last few years. During the last 22 years it has nearly doubled; it now represents over 400 students, and is increasing every year. We know that the students make their mark in the world, and I think that the claim of the University of Aberdeen to separate representation is fully equal of that of the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge, and even to that of the University of London. I have not said a word about the University of St. Andrew's. It is very small, but it is growing, and it is very likely to be affiliated with Dundee, and thus to represent in the future an important educational centre. I beg to propose the words of which I have given Notice.

Amendment proposed, In page 4, line 36, to leave out from the word "Glasgow," to the word "collectively," in line 38, in order to insert the words—"The University of Aberdeen; the University of St. Andrew's."—(Dr. Farquharson.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

DR. FOSTER (Chester)

I shall oppose this on the same principle as I opposed the last extension of the representation of these Corporations. One of the defects of the Medical Council ever since 1859 has been that these Corporations have had all the representation, and the Medical Profession have had none. It is very hard that the Profession should have to pay all the money to support the Council, and have practically no representation. I asked that we should get a representative out of the Crown nominees, but I did not succeed—although the Committee has consented to give a representative to the Victoria University. On behalf of the Medical Profession I protest against any further representation being given to these Corporations, and on the Report stage I shall endeavour to alter the system, believing it to be wrong.

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR) (Leeds, S.)

I voted in the "No" Lobby in the last division; but I believe that in proportion to the other representations, Scotland is not sufficiently well represented, and in the present state of feeling in the Committee it appears to me that it would be useless to oppose the Amendment. Certainly, the University of Aberdeen has a much better claim to representation than the Victoria University. It passes 73 Doctors and Bachelors of Medicine annually, and it has a very large constituency. The Committee will see how important it is, when I say that the Cambridge University, which has now an important Medical School, and to which no one would dream of refusing representation, only passes 27 medical men a year, while Aberdeen passes 73. Therefore, having given representation to the Victoria University I do not see how we can refuse it to Aberdeen.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

Before we go to a division I should like to know whether these Amendments mean a corresponding increase in the representation of the Profession? At present we are only to have two from Ireland, two from Scotland, and four from England; and before going to a division I should like to know if that number is to be in- creased? The promoters of the Bill do not seem to recognize the fact that it is the great majority of the Medical Corporations which are in the habit of obstructing medical measures in Parliament, and if I had thought for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman was going to refuse an increase in the representation of the members of the Profession I doubt very much if I should have voted as I did on the last Amendment.

MR. J. A. CAMPBELL (Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities)

I do not think it can be said that the Scottish Universities have stood in the way of medical reforms. I will not trouble the House with facts and figures in regard to the University of Aberdeen, which I have the honour to represent in this House; but I may say, as the right hon. Gentleman has shown, it is a large and flourishing Medical School. What I would lay before the House is the inconvenience of associating the Universities of Aberdeen and St. Andrew's for collective representation on the Medical Council, inasmuch as the two Universities are not similar in regard to the matter of medical faculties. The University of Aberdeen has a Medical School, while St. Andrew's is an Examining Body in regard to medical studies. It has a large number of medical graduates, and fulfils special functions in regard to medical education. I do not suggest that those functions should be taken away; but I do think it is inconvenient, under these circumstances, to associate Aberdeen and St. Andrew's in regard to representation on this Council. Therefore, I hope the Committee will not hesitate to grant separate representation on the Medical Council to each of these Universities.

SIR JOHN LUBBOCK (London University)

I voted in favour of the separate representation of the Victoria University, because I was unwilling that the Victoria University should have no representation at all. I do not, however, think the present Motion should be adopted, for I trust the members of the Medical Council will not be increased, because I am sure those acquainted with the working of it will agree that the numbers are sufficiently large. If my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire (Dr. Farquharson) goes to a division, I am afraid I shall not be able to vote with him.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edinburgh, and St. Andrew's Universities)

As the Representative of the University of St. Andrew's, I may be allowed to say a word, particularly after what has fallen from the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock). I do not think that the majority of the Committee will accept it from him that they made a mistake in their last division, and that therefore they must do a gross injustice in this case. It is plain upon the face of it that, if a member 13 to be given to each of the Universities in England, there is no reason why a member should not be given to each of the Universities in Scotland. St. Andrew's is the most ancient University in Scotland, and is quite as much entitled to separate representation as the Victoria University or the University of Durham. St. Andrew's has great prospects before it. Within a very short time it will be within half-an-hour's journey of Dundee, in which there is a flourishing University College established. [Laughter.] Hon. Members seem to be under some delusion about that. There is a University College established there, with a most excellent endowment, and in a short time there will be developed a very considerable number of medical schools there. The number of medical undergraduates in St. Andrew's is at present large, and therefore the University is fairly entitled to separate representation.

DR. FOSTER

It is all very well for the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) to say that St. Andrew's has a large number of medical undergraduates. He must know that St. Andrew's is the University of the United Kingdom which has brought disgrace upon the Medical Profession. Boatloads of English students go up there simply to take the degrees. At the present time it has no actual working medical school, and it only makes 10 aged practitioners doctors of medicine annually. It is said there is no argument against this proposition. The argument against the Amendment is this—Scotland has six representatives, it will have one Crown and one direct representative—that is, it will have eight members on the General Medical Council, while the medical population of the country is under 8,000. England, with a medical population of 16,000, will only have seven representatives. I shall take a division on the question.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

How many of the medical men in England came from the Scotch Universities?

DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid.)

The more I hear in the course of this debate, the more firmly convinced I am that there are too many corners being fought. This Bill is not intended to benefit the Medical Profession or any of the Bodies specified; but it is intended to benefit society at large, and, therefore, the fewer of the Corporations and Institutions that you grant power to, the better will be the provision you will make for the security of the general public. I feel great diffidence in addressing the Committee; but, having had some little experience, I feel bound to express the opinion, an opinion which I know perfectly well all my medical friends share, that the more you cut down these Corporations the greater benefit you will confer on the public. We have admitted the Victoria University to separate representation, and now it is proposed to grant separate representation to the University of Aberdeen and the University of St. Andrew's. Goodness knows where we shall stop. If the Universities of Aberdeen and St. Andrew's are admitted to representation, I shall certainly, on behalf of the Irish Bodies, ask for representation for the Catholic University and for the Magee College in Belfast.

MR. LACAITA (Dundee)

This is not a question of the comparative representation of Scotland as compared with England, but a question of what is due to the University of Aberdeen. I do not think many hon. Members will admit they made a mistake in the last division; but if there were hon. Members who went into the Lobby with the hon. Member for South Manchester (Sir Henry Roscoe) by mistake, they must have been very few in number. What claim has Durham University to separate representation that is not possessed by Aberdeen and St. Andrew's?

MR. JOHNS (Warwick, Nuneaton)

I have no desire to take part in the discussion, but simply rise to say that if the Medical Gentlemen in the House will not get on a little quicker with the Business, I must ask you, Mr. Courtney, to report Progress.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 72; Noes 55: Majority 17.—(Div. List No. 113.)

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

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