HC Deb 22 March 1886 vol 303 cc1498-9
CAPTAIN M'CALMONT (Antrim, E.)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to the charges delivered to the Grand Juries of Cork and Tipperary, on Wednesday last, by Mr. Justice O'Brien and Mr. Justice Johnston, in which they are reported to have said as follows:— Mr. Justice O'Brien (Cork)—'I am forced to say that I can observe no sign whatsover that the waters have subsided. For although the aggregate of crime, of reported crime, comprised within the interval, hardly exceeding two months, must necessarily be very small, yet within that aggregate are elements that can lead certainly to no very satisfactory or favourable conclusion with reference to the condition of this part of the country. I find that in all those forms of outrage and violation of the law that must be taken to be certain and unquestionable indications of the state of public feeling, the late account of this county is less satisfactory than the former one. For example, in the cases of killing and maiming cattle, a large increase has appeared in it. In the cases of malicious injury to property there is also an increase; an increase, perhaps, in the number of cases, but certainly no decrease whatever in the quality and degree. In the cases of notices resulting from the object and design of intimidation, there is at least no decrease in one part of the county, and a great increase in the other, and even the character of the offence or the form of outrage has apparently become more bold and more alarming.' Mr. Justice Johnston (Clonmel)—'Turning to the report that I have received from the authorities, I am sorry to say that the return which has been presented to me of those cases specially reported for this riding of this great county, as compared with the corresponding period of last year, shows that crime has increased by nearly one-fourth. The increase appears to be in housebreaking, in robbery, in killing and maiming cattle, and in what are known popularly as Whiteboy offences, in assaulting houses, and in threatening letters. This report is not a state of things on which this riding of the county is to be congratulated;' and, whether the Irish Executive have any reason to believe that the state of these counties is inaccurately described by these Judges?

MR. JOHN REDMOND (Wexford, N.)

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the Question I would like to ask this further Question, Whether his attention has been called to some remarks of Mr. Justice O'Brien in the Court in Cork on Saturday last with reference to Mrs. John Lucas, who was charged with setting fire to her husband's house, and pretending that it was an agrarian outrage, her husband being a J.P., in which his Lordship stated that Mrs. Lucas had been guilty of an offence of the greatest heinousness to be dealt with in the strictest manner, more especially as the state of the times furnished many with a pretext for covering their crimes and casting the blame on those who were in no way responsible for it?

MR. HOOPER (Cork, S.E.)

I would also ask the right hon. Gentleman whether this case, in which a magistrate's wife was sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment, was not the most serious case at trial at the Cork Assizes?

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne)

My attention was naturally directed to the remarks of the learned Judge in the unfortunate case of Mrs. Lucas. It scarcely falls, however, within the scope of the Question on the Paper. In answer to the hon. and gallant Gentleman I have, of course, seen the charges referred to both at Cork and Tipperary. As regards Cork, the observations of Mr. Justice O'Brien are weakened by the fact that he appears somehow to have regarded the Return presented to him as extending over a period hardly exceeding two months, whereas in reality it covered some days more than three months. Turning from that, and looking to the recent Returns of agrarian crime, I find that the number of such outrages in the County Cork was in November last year 9, in December 11, in January 17, and in February it fell again to 11. In Tipperary county the number in November was 14, in December 13, in January 8, and in February 9. There are, therefore, no indications in our Returns of the growth at present of crime of this kind, but rather the reverse.