CIVIL SERVICES.

HC Deb 18 March 1886 vol 303 cc1286-308

(3.) £3,403,400, Vote on Account, Civil Services and Revenue Departments, viz.:—

CLASS I.—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
Great Britain:—	£
Dover Harbour	200
Peterhead Harbour	5,000
Rates on Government Property (Great Britain and Ireland)	80,000
Metropolitan Fire Brigade	2,500
Disturnpiked and Main Roads (England and Wales)	10,000
Disturnpiked Roads (Scotland)	5,000
Ireland:—
Public Buildings	30,000
Royal University Buildings	2,000
Science and Art Buildings, Dublin	2,000
Abroad:—
Lighthouses Abroad	1,000
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings	6,000

CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
England:—	£
House of Lords, Offices	6,000
House of Commons, Offices	6,000
Treasury, including Parliamentary Counsel	10,000
Home Office and Subordinate Departments	15,000
Foreign Office	10,000
Colonial Office	6,000
Privy Council Office and Subordinate Departments	7,000
Board of Trade and Subordinate Departments	20,000
Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade	100
Charity Commission (including Endowed Schools Department)	7,000
Civil Service Commission	6,000
Exchequer and Audit Department	9,000
Friendly Societies, Registry	1,500
Land Commission for England	4,000
Local Government Board	40,000
Lunacy Commission	2,000
Mint (including Coinage)	20,000
National Debt Office	2,500
Patent Office	9,000
Paymaster General's Office	4,500
Public Works Loan Commission	1,500
Record Office	4,000
Registrar General's Office	8,000
Stationery Office and Printing	90,000
Woods, Forests, &c. Office of	4,000
Works and Public Buildings, Office of	8,000
Mercantile Marine Fund, Grant in Aid	10,000
Secret Service	10,000
Scotland:—
Secretary for Scotland	1,500
Exchequer and other Offices	500
Fishery Board	2,500
Lunacy Commission	1,000
Registrar General's Office	1,000
Board of Supervision	3,000
Ireland:—
Lord Lieutenant's Household	1,000
Chief Secretary's Office	6,500
Charitable Donations and Bequests Office	300
Local Government Board	20,000
Public Works Office	10,000
Record Office	1,000
Registrar General's Office	3,000
Valuation and Boundary Survey	4,500
CLASS III.—LAW AND JUSTICE.
England:—
Law Charges	14,000
Criminal Prosecutions	30,000
Supreme Court of Judicature	70,000
Wreck Commission	2,500
County Courts	20,000
Land Registry	1,000
Revising Barristers, England
Police Courts (London and Sheerness)	2,500
Metropolitan Police	150,000
Special Police	6,000

County and Borough Police, Great Britain	£
1,000
Convict Establishments in England and the Colonies	60,000
Prisons, England	60,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain	70,000
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum	5,000
Lord Advocate, and Criminal Proceedings	10,000
Courts of Law and Justice	5,000
Register House Departments	6,000
Police, Counties and Burghs (Scotland)	1,000
Prisons, Scotland	15,000
Ireland:—
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions	15,000
Supreme Court of Judicature	15,000
Court of Bankruptcy	1,500
Admiralty Court Registry	200
Registry of Deeds	3,000
Registry of Judgments	500
Land Commission	10,000
County Court Officers, &c.	15,000
Dublin Metropolitan Police (including Police Courts)	30,000
Constabulary	250,000
Prisons, Ireland	25,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools	25,000
Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum	1,500
CLASS IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.
England:—
Public Education	600,000
Science and Art Department	50,000
British Museum	25,000
National Gallery	1,000
National Portrait Gallery	600
Learned Societies, &c.	6,000
London University	2,000
University Colleges, Wales
Deep Sea Exploring Expedition (Report)	1,000
Scotland:—
Public Education	130,000
Universities, &c.	2,000
National Gallery	400
Ireland:—
Public Education	160,000
Teachers' Pension Office	500
Endowed Schools Commissioners	200
National Gallery	300
Queen's Colleges	500
Royal Irish Academy	100
CLASS V.—FOREIGN AND COLONIAL SERVICES.
Diplomatic Services	50,000
Consular Services	40,000
Slave Trade Services	2,000
Suez Canal (British Directors)	400
Colonies, Grants in Aid	5,000
South Africa and St. Helena	10,000
Subsidies to Telegraph Companies	10,000
Cyprus, Grant in Aid

CLASS VI.—NON-EFFECTIVE AND CHARITABLE SERVICES.
	£
Superannuation and Retired Allowances	120,000
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c.	1,000
Pauper Lunatics, England
Pauper Lunatics, Scotland
Pauper Lunatics, Ireland	60,000
Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland	4,000
Savings Banks and Friendly Societies Deficiency
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Great Britain	500
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Ireland	600
CLASS VII.—MISCELLANEOUS.
Temporary Commissions	6,000
Miscellaneous Expenses	3,000
Total for Civil Services	£2,733,400
REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
Customs	100,000
Inland Revenue	100,000
Post Office	100,000
Post Office Packet Service	20,000
Post Office Telegraphs	350,000
	£670,000
Grand Total	£3,403,400

MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll)

I desire to call attention to the want of sufficient polling places in Scotch counties, and particularly in Argyllshire, at the last Election. I should be glad to postpone the discussion of this matter if the Government will give me an assurance that the question will not become one of practical interest within the present year. In October last I had occasion to call public attention, through the columns of The Times newspaper, to the question of polling places in Scotland, and especially in Argyllshire, in which I was then particularly interested. I also wrote to the Duke of Richmond, who was then Secretary for Scotland, and I pointed out to His Grace that in the Island of Tiree there were 156 voters and no polling place; that the polling place was in the Island of Mull, 23 miles distant by open sea, and that there was no accommodation for reaching that place except by fishing boats, and no accommodation if detained by stress of weather or other causes. The result was that the people were partially disfranchised in good weather, and absolutely disfranchised in bad weather. The case of the Island of Coll, where there were 80 voters, was all but identical, the polling place being 18 miles distant from Tobermory, in Mull, and the inconvenience was doubled by the appointment of two polling places for these two Islands in place of one, which might have been reached by one vessel. The people of these Islands petitioned in vain to the Sheriff of Argyllshire; but the Sheriff of Argyllshire refused to grant to 156 voters on one Island and 80 on another a common polling place, and the result was that a large portion of the voters were absolutely disfranchised, only about 70 voters from Tiree incurring the risk of going to the poll. In England it is the rule that where there are 100 voters it is compulsory to provide a polling place within three miles. But I have pointed out that in the case of Tiree the distance is 23 miles by open sea, and, in my letter to The Times, that it was like calling upon the electors of, say, Calais, to record their votes in Dover, and that they should be required to come over no matter what the weather was. That is what happened in this case, and the result was that a great many of them were disfranchised. In support of what I say I will quote the testimony of a newspaper, which is not supposed to be in favour of the opinion of these people. That paper stated that the Hebridean, which was the vessel I engaged, encountered very stormy weather, and the result was that I should be deprived of considerable support, as Tiree was noted for its strongly disaffected feeling. I should like to call attention for one moment to the word "disaffected." In England that word was taken to mean disloyalty to the Crown; but in Scotland it meant disloyalty to The Scotsman newspaper. I brought this matter before His Grace the Duke of Richmond. The next point I called His Grace's attention to was the case of another Island where there were 136 voters, and where the polling place was 25 miles distant. In the case of the Island of Jura, the voters of the North end had to go a distance of 40 or 50 miles to vote at Port Ellen. I think that is sufficient to show the system under which the spirit of the law is administered in Scotland. In his reply to me, I understood His Grace the Duke of Richmond to mean that he would make a representation to the Sheriff of Argyll, who, in conjunction with the late Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald), was responsible for the arrangement. I have no doubt His Grace did so; but there was no change, and I am curious to hear from the right hon. and learned Gentleman what excuse he can possibly offer for practically disfranchising the people to a great extent. The people believe it was done designedly, and I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman will be able to persuade the Committee that it was done accidentally. I grant there were difficulties. I do not think it is possible to administer the law in Scotland as it is administered in England, where each 100 voters are bound to be supplied with a polling place not more than three miles distant; but there is a wide difference between that and voters having to go 40 or 50 miles. Not only in England, but in Scotland, when Gentlemen become public servants, they are apt to assume to themselves the airs of public masters, and there is no class that err more in this respect than Scotch Sheriffs. They believe that they are above the law. They are a law unto themselves. They do as they please. They despise the Representatives of the people; and while both political Parties of the country were contending for the honour of giving the people the right of voting, the Sheriffs were doing all they could to prevent them going to the poll. In Argyllshire, out of 10,000 electors less than 7,000 recorded their vote, and there was open jubilation on the part of my opponents in Argyllshire, because the tempestuous weather prevented a number of my supporters from coming to the poll. One boat was actually swamped in leaving one of the Islands; but 90 electors from the same place were plucky enough to defy the elements, and came to record their votes in spite of all the efforts of the Sheriff of Argyllshire, aided by the late Lord Advocate. It may be said why should you like more polling places when they cost so much? The charge for each was £35 to £50; but I would rather pay for more polling places, even at a cost of £50, than that the people should be disfranchised. In England the law lays down a hard-and-fast line. I believe that the maximum that can be charged for a polling place is £7 7s., but that does not suit those who are called the economical Party in Scotland. It does not suit the cliques in Edinburgh who profit by these trans- actions. There is a charge of £5 5s. a-day for a certain number of gentlemen who travel from Edinburgh on an excursion to become Returning Officers, when there were local men who would have been glad to do the work for £1 1s. each. I appeal now, first of all, to the late Lord Advocate to explain how these things come about, and I would appeal to the present Lord Advocate, who has the power to remedy this state of things before another election. It must be remembered that most of these voters are not young people, a large proportion of them are feeble people; but they are asked to tramp 30 or 40 miles to record their votes. How many people in London would tramp from Bow to Hammersmith to record their votes? There would be very few who would have pluck enough. What has been done in Scotland is this—a large percentage of the people have not been allowed to vote in consequence of the arrangements of the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the Sheriff. One other charge I have to make against the Sheriff of Argyllshire. By the Ballot Act it is the universal custom to allow candidates, on the day when the votes are counted, to be represented by as many, or nearly as many, agents as there are counters. ["Hear, hear!"] I am glad to hear that "Hear, hear!" because it confirms me in my belief as to the practice. Well, what happened in Argyllshire? I gave written permission to three gentlemen to attend on my behalf to scrutinize the action of 20 counters, and the Sheriff of Argyllshire, without the slightest hesitation, rejected two and allowed me one, because the other side had not demanded more than one. But why should they? Because all the counters were on their side, as was also the Sheriff. I got only one, but he was sufficient. Now, Sir, I complain of these things, and I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, for whom I have the greatest possible respect, to explain them. I charge the Sheriff of Argyllshire publicly and deliberately in this House with having done everything in his power by every possible means to defeat the Franchise Bill, and I ask the present Lord Advocate to make such arrangements for the future—whether it is in May or June, or five years hence—that we shall not be prevented by local efforts from obtaining a fair representation of the people.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities)

I have no reason to complain of the hon. Gentleman having raised this question, because the style and manner in which he has spoken of me and the Sheriff of Argyllshire in this House corresponds with the way in which he has spoken of us elsewhere, and which has appeared in the Press, and I therefore think it is desirable that we should have an opportunity of making some remarks upon the subject. But I think the opportunity on my part would be very much abused if I adopted the same tone and the same kind of language as the hon. Gentleman has used in this House. It is not a very usual thing to make such charges as those the hon. Member has brought forward against the Sheriff of Argyllshire by mere verbal statements; and I cannot help thinking that if the hon. Gentleman had not disaffected constituents, as he has told us himself, he would not have thought it worth while to use such language as he has used to-night about a gentleman, whom, I venture to say in the presence of several hon. Gentlemen who know him well, that there is not a more honourable, more faithful, or more thorough gentleman than Mr. Irvine, the Sheriff of Argyllshire. I go further, and say that I am able to state to this House, I hope to the satisfaction of the hon. Member who has just addressed the Committee—a statement which I make upon my honour as a Gentleman—that in all my conversations and correspondence with Mr. Irvine on this question of the settlement of the polling places of Argyllshire, I never saw one single trace of Party spirit, or a single desire on his part to do anything but what he thought best under all the circumstances of the case. I am also aware that the hon. Gentleman has on more than one occasion expressed a very emphatic opinion as to my conduct, and as to my being actuated by the same motives which he now, in the absence of the Sheriff of Argyllshire, attributes to him; but I certainly think the Committee will excuse me from making any reply to any such statements. If the hon. Member, from the very slight acquaintance he has of me, believes me capable of such conduct, it would be vain on my part to attempt to disabuse his mind of that opinion. I think I shall best fulfil my duty to-night by getting away from these personal allusions and aspersions. One thing I may say—I am sure the House will congratulate the hon. Member upon the fact that the corruption practised against him has not prevented his taking his seat in Parliament; and I think I may also venture to say that it is not from any fear of the future position of the polling places in Argyllshire that he has made this statement. I thank the hon. Member for bringing forward the matter thus publicly, and in a manner so that it can be publicly replied too. I think it will be instructive to the Committee to know the difficulties of the Lord Advocate when certain duties are thrust upon him. This I can say—that the accusations which the hon. Member has made in regard to his county are exactly the opposite to those which have been made in regard to other counties similarly situated. In some counties, such as Ross-shire, where the voters were very scattered, the charge made against the Lord Advocate and the Sheriff was that they were corruptly using their position by appointing far too many polling places, for the purpose of placing expense upon the candidate. So that we have a double difficulty. In one place we are accused of appointing too many polling places, and in another too few. I will give the Committee an idea of the kind of arguments that are adduced against us. As the Committee is aware, in the county of Ross-shire there are a great number of illiterate voters, so far as voting on English forms with English instructions is concerned; and, therefore, without having a great many polling places, it would have been impossible to poll all the inhabitants. The accusations which are made against us, therefore, are based upon the most absurd ground. Then, again, I would refer for a moment to a more populous, to a more civilized locality, where the Sheriff, who happens to belong to the Conservative Party, and myself were accused of the grossest corruption at Whitewich, near Patrick, for which my hon. and learned Friend sits, but who has not brought the matter forward. We were accused of purposely not having laid down a polling place there, because it was said that the Tories were anxious, if it was a wet day, that the Liberal voters of Whitewich might have to go a mile or a mile and a-half to the polling place. Well, Sir, it so happened that I had a number of petitions, on the part of the Conservatives of Whitewich, requesting that a polling place should be put down there. I also had a petition from the Liberals; but neither of them were acceded to. The fact was, I was unable to interfere, because the petitions did not reach me until after the time fixed by the Statute. That was the sole difficulty, and these were the sort of difficulties we had to face. But not only so, even as regards the case of Argyllshire, I can assure the hon. Member that if it had not been that the Sheriff and myself stretched a point to keep the matter open rather beyond the statutory time, we should not have been able to make some of the alterations which we did make. If we had desired to do what the hon. Member imputes to us, we might have taken our stand on this—that the representations came in too late, and that the thing could not be altered. Now I may state what I hinted at the time the representations came to the Secretary for Scotland in this matter. I ask the Committee to observe this—that the letters which the hon. Member wrote to the papers were not inserted until the time had come for holding the Registration Courts; and at that time it was quite impossible to alter the arrangements without disorganizing the whole of the plans for the election.

MR. MACFARLANE

May I correct the right hon. and learned Gentleman? After my first letter appeared in The Times, two new polling places were added.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

I can assure the hon. Member that he is entirely mistaken. It may have come to the hon. Member's knowledge afterwards; but the deliverance by which the polling places were added was a deliverance given before the letter appeared. I can assure him that that is a fact. I refer to my own note on the matter, as it was written down without expecting that this question would come up before Parliament at all. Perhaps I may be allowed to read it— The arrangement of polling places in these outlying districts is very difficult, and Mr. Irvine and I have done our best. Polling cannot be easy where a number of small Islands are concerned. If polling places are multiplied the result to candidates becomes expensive, and in other parts of the West Highlands the Sheriff and I have been severely abused for appointing too many stations, and thereby increasing expense. The Committee will see, perhaps, the difficulty of our position. To refer to actual facts. So far as investigations are concerned, I myself saw reports from all sorts of officials in Argyllshire offering their opinions as to the best arrangements that could be made. I do not for a moment suggest that the work that we carried out was perfection. It was unlikely that it would be perfection, for there were many difficulties to be considered and many facts to be taken into account that the hon. Member does not understand. There was one difficulty above all others as regards the Island of Tiree and the Island of Coll. The hon. Member has especially referred to the matter. If a polling station had been established on them, and that stormy weather of which the hon. Member spoke as making it so difficult for voters to reach the main Island for the purpose of voting, had occurred, it would have rendered it impossible for the Presiding Officer to land. If he had not been able to do so at the proper time, it would have made the whole election null and void. We had to take it into serious contemplation whether it was better to put some 150 voters to some of these inconveniences, which it is absolutely impossible to prevent in such districts as Argyllshire, and which contain scattered Islands exposed to the Atlantic, or risk the chance of rendering the election null and void. We knew perfectly well that the voters could reach the Island of Mull if the weather permitted, and we did not lose sight of the fact that the rendering of the election void would have thrown all the expense of another contest upon the shoulders of the candidates. As regards Tiree and Coll, we divided them, so as to give as best we could the result of having a reasonable number of voters in each polling place, by sending the voters of one place to Mull and the voters of the other to Tobermory. We made the best divisions we could. I do not say it was the perfection of arrangements; but I do say, and I hope the hon. Member will try to believe me, that it was honestly done in the best interest of the carrying out of the election. Nothing that we have heard to-night has satisfied me that I was not right in the decision I took in the matter; and nothing I have heard has convinced me that, unless I had acted from corrupt motives, which I cannot realize to myself, I did not come to a right decision. Reference has been made to a place called Easdale and a place called Luing; and it is complained that the voters from Easdale were asked to vote at a place called Kilmelfort. Well, it is true that to follow the main road from Easdale to Kilmelfort, involves a journey of a considerable number of miles; but there is a very good bridle path, by which it takes only eight or nine miles to perform the journey. I am informed that that is so by people who know the district as well as the hon. Member; indeed, I venture to doubt whether the hon. Member has ever been in that district. If he has, I stand corrected. My information comes from the constable of the district. Then take the case of the inhabitants of Luing; they had only to go six or seven miles by land-locked water to record their votes. But if the people of Easdale had had a polling station near them, the people of Craiguish and Capel would have had to go 30 miles to vote. The Committee will see that, in a broken-up place like that, all you can do is to endeavour to get something like a central place as a polling station. No doubt most people who had to go a number of miles to vote would complain, and for selfish motives would desire to have a polling place near to them, regardless of the convenience of the inhabitants of other districts. It is plain, I say, that if the people the hon. Gentleman has referred to had had a polling station near them, other people would have been obliged to go 30 miles to vote.

MR. MACFARLANE

Why did you not have two polling stations?

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

The hon. Member says why did we not have two polling stations. But I would ask how many voters does he mean to put to each?

MR. MACFARLANE

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has quite misunderstood my argument. There are 325 voters in the parish in which Easdale is situated; and what I claim is that a voting place should be allowed to these 325 voters, and that does not seem unreasonable.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

If there had been a voting place for every 325 voters in the county, I do not think the hon. Member would be quite so comfortable in purse as he is at the present time. Then, again, it is all very well for these places to claim to be treated in the best possible way; but as it was, we increased the number of polling places from 14 to 24.

MR. MACFARLANE

20.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

24.

MR. MACFARLANE

20.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

I think the hon. Member, after the accusations he has made, might allow those on the other side to speak. Being in Committee, the hon. Member will have an opportunity to reply. With regard to Jura and Portaskaig, I am not very well prepared on that matter. If my recollection serves me aright, the great fact in connection with that incident was that there was no place that could be got suitable for a polling station, and that there were no workmen and materials to be got to knock up a booth; but so careful was I in that matter, that, before it was finally settled, I made inquiries to see if it was possible to get the desired accommodation. It was only after making that inquiry, and considering the matter most carefully, that our ultimate arrangements were made. Turning back for one moment to the original charge, I beg to point out again the position in which we were placed, with a General Election coming on and taking place under an entirely new franchise. I will suggest to the Committee and to the hon. Member, if he will allow me, that it would have been better if, on the first occasion on which efforts have been made to carry out an Act of Parliament of this kind, there had been a little more charity and belief that the officials intended to act honestly in this matter, and if the hon. Member and his Friends, whatever they might have thought privately, had tried to believe that we have endeavoured to do our best. If this had been the attitude of the hon. Member and his Friends, there might, perhaps, have been less difficulty in coming to an adjustment, and in, to a great extent, improving the arrangements we made. But, surely, it is not the way to deal with a subject of this kind in a Committee like this—to accuse the Sheriffs of Scotland of endeavouring to take up the position of public masters.

DR. CLARK (Caithness)

Breakers of the law as well.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

If hon. Gentlemen adhere to that statement, I beg to give it the most emphatic contradiction that is consistent with the Rules of this Committee; and I venture to say that hon. Members will not get any number of respectable inhabitants in Scotland, or Members of this House, to join with them in saying that the Sheriffs do not act honourably, and do not do their duty faithfully and honestly. I desire to treat this matter good humouredly, as regards myself; but, as regards men whom we honour and respect — [Dr. CLARK: No!]—well, there is one inhabitant of Scotland who does not honour and respect them, and who thinks it is a worthy thing to say it in this House, and before this Committee. But knowing these men, and knowing that they are respected in Scotland, I repudiate altogether for them the suggestions hurled at them by hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway; and I say that accusations like this should not be made, except on the strongest grounds, and supported by the most clear and distinct evidence. [Mr. MACFARLANE: Hear, hear!] I say, that if matters of this kind are to be brought up in this way, there is no protection for honourable men in the carrying out of their duties. If such accusations are to be permitted, and such general aspersions are to be hurled by hon. Members, there is no protection for officials. Let the hon. Member make a real, straightforward, bonâ fide written accusation to the Secretary of State, and let it be fully examined. Do not let us have the honourable Sheriffs of Scotland accused and maligned in a manner which I do not use too strong an expression if I describe as disgraceful.

MR. MACFARLANE

I am sorry that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has taken up the question in the manner he has. He has called on me to make my charge in the form of a written statement. Well, the very first step I took was to make a written statement to the Duke of Richmond. [Mr. J. H. A. MAC-DONALD: Yes; in a letter to the newspapers.] No; in a letter to the then Secretary for Scotland, and the Duke of Richmond stated, in reply, that if my facts were correct—and they have not been refuted—has the right hon. and learned Gentleman refuted one of them? No, not one; he has wandered all over the world, but has never touched the gist of the whole matter. He has said they did the best they could; but he has never explained why they could not have done better. He says they could not find wood enough at Jura to make a polling booth. Was it not possible to import wood to Portaskaig, and make a polling booth there, so that when people landed they would not have had to go 12 or 14 miles further before they could vote? There has been no answer to my charge. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says—"Formulate your chage in black and white." I did so, to the highest authority in Scotland, and that highest authority, as I understand his letter, assured me that he would make representation to the Sheriff. But we have not heard what that representation was. I asked the right hon. and learned Gentleman the present Lord Advocate if he would lay the correspondence on the Table; but he refused to do so. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the late Lord Advocate has not said a word as to the nature of the representation made by the Duke of Richmond to himself and the Sheriff of Argyllshire in this matter. Why not? I have no doubt that the noble Duke did what he thought was right, and called on his subordinate officials to carry out what he thought to be justice; but they did not, and that, I suppose, is the reason we are refused a sight of the letter of the noble Duke. I ask those who have listened to this argument, so far as it has gone, passionate on the one side and cool and collected on the other—I ask this Committee to say if there has been one tittle, one pretence, one shadow of an answer made to the charges I have brought against these officials?

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR) (, &c.) Clackmannan

As an appeal has been made to me, I will say a few words in reply to it. If the hon. Member refers primarily to the future, I need not say that if experience in the future should prove that there is any remediable inconvenience, it will be always open for anyone to make a representation, and have it most carefully considered; and I am perfectly certain that every Sheriff in Scotland will be most ready and willing to give it a fair and dispassionate and careful considera- tion. I can only say, as regards the general allegation which has been made, that I entirely concur in what has been said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) on this matter. Having had to carry on the administration in regard to electoral matters for some years in Scotland, I have been put into communication with the Sheriffs on these as well as on other matters; and I can say, from experience, that without exception these gentlemen have taken a great deal of pains with the view to solving, if possible, the difficult problem of appointing a sufficient number of polling places, without unduly heaping up the expense. They have endeavoured to collect the best opinions and information and evidence they could from the localities, and have submitted schemes, and have tried to meet justice as well as convenience. I am certain, though I have not the actual official duty of carrying out the arrangements in Argyllshire, that that is exactly the spirit which is manifested there. I regret extremely that it has been thought necessary to make such a charge as this against the Sheriff of that county—to charge him with having acted for Party purposes. No one who knows him, as I have had the privilege of doing for years past, can have heard these charges without experiencing a feeling of something like rising indignation, and no one having the ability to do so would decline to get up and repudiate it in the strongest manner. Any representation for advancing the interest and convenience of electors will, I am sure, be as carefully considered by this gentleman in the future as it has been in the past. I have no knowledge of the representations which may have been made to the late Secretary for Scotland; but, so far as I know, I can only say that they did not contain a charge against anyone, but were merely representations bearing upon the number of polling places. That was the only matter which had to be considered, and I suppose it was considered so far as the statutory time would allow, though I rather think that October had then arrived. As regards the future, I can only repeat that any representation will be carefully considered. I know that some of the Sheriffs did remark upon the great difficulty they had experienced in consequence of their desire not to unneces- sarily multiply polling places, inasmuch as complaints were made to them that the expense of unduly extending the number of booths would be intolerable. I hope we shall be able to remove these difficulties—or some of them—by legislation. With regard to Returning Officers' expenses, I think that in so far as by legislation or administration the cost can be kept within reasonable bounds, and at the same time the opportunity given to the largest number of voters to vote, it will be done.

DR. R. M'DONALD (Ross and Cromarty)

If the Committee will listen to me for a few moments, I have an entirely different complaint to make against the authorities for the manner in which they managed the polling places in Scotland. My complaint is that I had a great deal more polling places than I wanted, the result being to make the election more expensive than it ought to have been; whereas the complaint of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macfarlane) is that in his district of scattered Islands there were not sufficient polling places, the lack of them causing the candidates to employ steamers in order to carry the voters from the Islands to the mainland. We have been told by the late Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) that he did the best that in him lay to make the polling places as reasonable as possible. Well, in Argyllshire, with its 10,000 electors, we have 14 polling places, whilst in Ross-shire, which is 6,000 acres less in extent, and which has 9,000 electors—1,000 fewer than Argyllshire—there are 39 polling places. We sent representations to the authorities at Edinburgh—to the Secretary for Scotland for the time being—and all the reply we got was that two places were taken from a little town called Stornoway, about a mile long, for which three booths had been arranged. So far as I can see, the late Lord Advocate has not dealt with the facts of the case. It was with the greatest difficulty that we got the slight reduction I am referring to; and I want to know on what ground can the late Lord Advocate say he did his best, when we see there were provided for 10,000 voters 14 polling places, and for 9,000 voters 39 polling places? And these are facts which cannot be gainsaid. Another point has been taken up, and it is one which I maintain it is important to urge. Instead of having local people put on as polling Sheriffs in the Island of Lewis, they came from Edinburgh. They had to start from there on Monday, and could not get back until the Monday following. They had £3 3s. a-day each, and their clerks £1 1s., and all their expenses. There are men in the district who look after school board and other elections, and who are quite capable of conducting a Parliamentary election. It would be infinitely better to employ them than to employ gentlemen who run up a bill—as happened in one case—of £35 each. I object to the employment of briefless barristers in Edinburgh for this work; it is a mistake from beginning to end. I lay these facts before the Committee. They are not to be gainsaid, and I must say I think the Committee ought to see that in these matters we are not left to Lord Advocates or anyone else. A proper scheme of polling places should be drawn up so that we can get justice all round.

DR. CLARK (Caithness)

If there is a feeling of lawlessness and disaffection in the Highlands of Scotland, some of us think that those who have caused it are not the agitators, but the men who represent law and order—the Sheriffs of the counties who break the law with impunity. I will not take up the time of the Committee to-night with a description of the various illegal acts of the Sheriffs; but, were I to do so, I could prove to you by a plain statement of fact that thousands of crofters and cottars have been disfranchised owing to the action of the Sheriffs. I will, however, point out in my own case two or three absolutely illegal acts performed by the Sheriff of my own county, who is probably one of the best of the Sheriffs. Hon. Gentlemen are aware that under the Ballot Act candidates have a right to be present to see the counting of the ballots. Well, in the case of my own election, I went to the Sheriff's Court to see the ballots counted, and was refused admission. I looked at the Act again and went back, saw the sergeant of police, and told him I had a right by Act of Parliament to see the thing done. I demanded that he should bring the Sheriff — I declared that unless he brought the Sheriff I would force my way in. The Sheriff was brought, and in my presence he ordered the policeman to keep me out. Here was an illegal act committed by the representative of the Crown, and I call the attention of the Lord Advocate to it. But, more than this, according to the Corrupt Practices Act, if a candidate pays an account after a certain date he commits an illegal act; and yet this Sheriff wishes to compel me to pay an account after that specified date. I cannot comply with his demand, for I should be breaking the law; but the Sheriff has £50 of mine in his hands, and I allow him to keep that rather than do what is illegal. There is no Schedule in the Act applying to Scotland, as there is in the case of Ireland and England, by which 1s. per mile is charged for carrying the ballot boxes. The Sheriff Clerk, therefore, charged me 10s. per mile. I thought this a preposterous charge, and desired to have it taxed; but the Sheriff tells me I cannot have it taxed. I will give the Committee another instance before sitting down. The night before the polling my agent sent down a man to act as a polling clerk at a distance of 13 miles from a chief town. He did not get him to sign the usual form. He charged me £22 for going down to act as my polling clerk. The matter came before the Sheriff Clerk, who allowed this polling clerk £4 4s. a-day, while the Act only allows polling Sheriffs £3 3s., and polling clerks £1 1s. This is the kind of justice we get in the Highlands, and yet you expect us to fall down and worship these Sheriffs—men who commit illegal acts with impunity. The wonder is that, under the circumstances, the Highlanders have been so law-abiding as they have been for so long a time. As no reply has been given to the complaints of my hon. Friend (Mr. Macfarlane), I trust he will divide the Committee.

MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll)

I have waited patiently, expecting to receive some assurance from the present Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) that he would do what he could to redress the wrongs of which I complained, done under the late Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald); but, instead of that—

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)

If I did not say, I meant to say, that if there is any representation or suggestion made, it will be considered most fully.

MR. MACFARLANE

What I complain of is that, in many cases, the Scot- tish officials require to be told what their duties are. Are they not aware of the necessities of these counties? The late Lord Advocate said the case was not presented to them until it was too late to interfere. Did it not occur to the Government that they had better consider the question before representations were made to them? The same remark applies to the present Lord Advocate. This seems to have been made an occasion for the present and late Lord Advocates to compliment each other across the Table upon the excellent arrangements that they have made, and upon their being two honourable men. I do not dispute that they are honourable men; but I say they may be mistaken. In consequence of the completely unsatisfactory answer of the present Lord Advocate, who, if my eyes had been shut, I should have thought when he was speaking he was sitting on the Tory Benches, I shall divide the Committee upon this question.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

In dividing the Committee, does the hon. Gentleman mean to refuse the entire £3,000,000? I would suggest that the hon. Member should move to reduce the Vote by the amount of the salary of the Lord Advocate. If he were to do so, I should certainly vote with him.

SIR JULIAN GOLDSMID (St. Pancras, S.)

It is quite clear that if the Government would give some fair and satisfactory promise to the hon. Member (Mr. Macfarlane), this matter might be settled. As we all know, there is a scale upon which we in England are charged for our polling places. There is no such scale in Scotland, and that is an obvious grievance. Again, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macfarlane) has shown that there are cases in which men have to travel 25 and 30 miles in order to record their votes. That, also, is an acknowledged grievance. Then it has been shown that men have, at the risk of their lives, had to cross stormy seas; but the right hon. and learned Gentleman the late Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) said the Sheriff could not go over, as it might have been risky for him.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities)

I said nothing of the kind. I said it so happened it was so stormy that no one could land from the steamer; the weather prevented a landing taking place.

SIR JULIAN GOLDSMID

The right hon. Gentleman said it was risky for the Officer to land from the steamer.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not know the coast of Argyllshire?

SIR JULIAN GOLDSMID

Yes; I do.

MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD

Then he must know it is not a question of risk, but of absolute impossibility.

SIR JULIAN GOLDSMID

If it is a matter of absolute impossibility for the Sheriff to cross this sea, it ought also to be a matter of absolute impossibility for the voter. That is all the greater reason why the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macfarlane) was right in asking for additional polling stations. I trust that Her Majesty's Government will give a more satisfactory answer to hon. Members, and thus avoid a division.

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR) (, &c.) Clackmannan

The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken cannot have been present the other day, when, in answer to a Question in this House, I stated that we were preparing to legislate on the question of Returning Officers' expenses. To that part of the the matter we are fully alive. In regard to the rest, I am afraid I have not succeeded in making myself plain. I shall make the very best effort I can to investigate the representations that have been made to-night, and any others that are in any shape or form made.

MR. MACFARLANE

The last statement of the right hon. and learned Gentleman is quite satisfactory.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)

Mr. Courtney, in this Vote on Account there is a small item for an Office in Dublin called the Registrar General's Office, Ireland. I have placed on the Paper, in regard to the ordinary Estimates, a Notice to reduce the sum for this Office by £200. My purpose in rising now is to obtain from the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley), or, if not from him, from the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. H. H. Fowler), an assurance that the scheme for the reorganization of that Office will not be definitely adopted until the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary has had an opportunity of really examining the merits of the case. In reply to a Question I put some days ago, the right hon. Gentleman intimated that the proposed scheme had received the sanction of the Treasury, but that it had not been finally adopted; and I understood him to say that he was prepared to consider the question. But if that consideration is not given before the 1st of April next—that is to say, in about 10 or 11 days—the scheme will be in active operation, and it will be too late to interfere with it. The Estimate for the Office is not likely to come on until considerably after that date, and then it will be almost too late to raise the question at all. I should like, especially as there is sufficient money in hand to carry on the Office, that the operation of the scheme should be delayed until we can upon the ordinary Civil Service Estimates thrash the question out. I should not make this application unless I did not believe—and my belief is shared by almost all the Members from Ireland, whether they sit above or below the Gangway—if I did not believe that the very greatest injustice will be done to a considerable number of men by the proposed scheme of reorganization. I trust the Government will be willing to postpone the adoption of the scheme until its merits have been laid before the House.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wolverhampton, E.)

The scheme has not come before the Treasury yet.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

Oh, yes; it has received the Treasury's sanction.

MR. HENRY H. FOWLER

I thought it was still awaiting the decision of the Treasury. If it has received the sanction of the Treasury, I apprehend there will be no difficulty in carrying it out. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary is not here. ["Yes."] Then I will leave the matter in his hands.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. JOHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne)

I was not in the House when the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Donegal (Mr. A. O'Connor) made his statement; but I think we shall be perfectly ready to postpone the operation of the scheme until there is some chance of considering it.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £595 12s. 1d., Civil Services Excesses, viz.:—

CLASS I.—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
	£	s.	d.
New Courts of Justice and Offices.	16	8	1
CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
Registrar General's Offices, Scotland	1	10	11
CLASS III.—LAW AND JUSTICE.
Supreme Court of Judicature, Ireland	178	17	1
Dublin Metropolitan Police	398	16	0
Total	£595	12	1

(5.) £38,119 10s., Navy Excess.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.