HC Deb 11 June 1886 vol 306 cc1620-5

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Repeal of part of s. 18 of 85 & 36 Viet. c. 76).

MR. CHARLES JAMES (Merthyr Tydvil)

I beg to move the Amendment to Clause 1 which stands in my name on the Paper. Under the general Act for the regulation of mines, the check weigher is appointed at the expense of the men.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, at end, add—"And further, in all cases where a cheek weigher has been appointed by the majority of the colliers working in any mine and had acted as such he may recover from any collier working in such mine his proportion of the check weigher's wages or recompense notwithstanding that any colliers or collier may have left the colliery or others have entered the same since the check weigher's appointment, any rule of law or equity to the contrary notwithstanding; And further, it may be lawful for the owner or manager of any mine to retain the agreed contribution of the colliers for the check weigher, notwithstanding the provisions of the Acts relating to truck, and to pay and account for the same to the said check weigher."—(Mr. C. James.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

said, he would accept the Amendment.

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. BROADHURST) (Birmingham, Bordesley)

I must appeal to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Assheton Cross) not to proceed further with this Bill to-night. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman could have expected that anything would be done with it at this Sitting, and I appeal to him to adjourn the debate until Wednesday. If the Government can see its way to meet the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman, there will be plenty of time to get the Bill through despite such adjournment. But I do not think it will be in the power of the Government to assent to the measure now. They have, to the utmost of their power, embodied in their own Bill everything the right hon. Gentleman puts in this measure; therefore, I appeal to him to agree to the adjournment of further proceedings until Wednesday.

SIR R. ASSHETON GROSS

This Bill was brought in at the very beginning of the Session; and when the Secretary of State informed the House that he was himself hoping to be able to introduce a Bill on the subject as soon as the Report of the Commission on Accidents in Mines was presented, I was willing to put this off from time to time to await the appearance of that Bill. The Report in question was presented some time ago, and I put off my measure in order that the Government might pass theirs. Well, circumstances have happened which render it impossible for the Government Bill to become law this Session; in fact, it is withdrawn. I cannot, however, see why the colliers should lose the protection which this Bill would give them, and the advantages they would have if it were passed into law. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Broadhurst) practically says this—that, because the Session is to be broken up, the colliers are not to have the benefit of this measure, the whole of the provisions of which were contained in the Government Bill. They cannot object to the provisions of my Bill, because, as I say, and as the hon. Gentleman has himself said, every one of them were included in the proposals of the Government. The Government themselves, at one time, were anxious to pass these provisions, so anxious that they did not wait to frame a larger measure on the presentation of the Report of the Commission on Accidents in Mines, lest something should happen in the Session and these clauses should not become law. I desire the Bill to pass through Committee. The Report stage might be put down for Thursday, and the Secretary of State, if he has any Amendment to propose, can move it then, just as if I we were in Committee. I am extremely anxious to see the Bill passed into law this Session, and I trust the Government will do nothing to prevent it. If they do prevent it, I shall not shrink from throwing upon them all responsibility for the proceeding. The people who are interested in this question are anxious to have the Bill, and I have promised them that it shall pass. I trust the Bill will go through Committee to-night. On Wednesday, if they choose to stop it, they can; of course, if they so desire, they can do so now; but if they do they must take the responsibility.

MR. BROADHURST

I am sorry to trouble the Committee again; but the distinct understanding with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary (Mr. Childers) was that this Bill should not be proceeded with if he did not proceed further with the Government Bill—[Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS: No, no!] I am not going to fasten these conditions on the right hon. Gentleman; but they were the conditions mentioned to me by my right hon. Friend the other day when we were consulting as to the course to be adopted in regard to this Bill. With regard to the Bill of the Government, it will be in the recollection of the House that it was put down for second reading one night last week, and we were perfectly prepared to proceed with the stage. I, however, consulted with the right hon. Gentleman as to whether it would be fair to the House to ask it to proceed with the second reading of so important a measure at an hour, somewhat two hours, earlier than at present, and the right hon. Gentleman agreed that it would be scarcely fair.

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

I said I would raise no objection.

MR. BROADHURST

He said he would not raise any objection previous to 1 o'clock in the morning.

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

I said I would raise no objection provided there was ample time before we went into Committee in order to have the matter discussed.

MR. BROADHURST

Then I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman. I did not move the second reading as I should have done. I understood he would object if it was after 1 in the morning.

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

No.

MR. BROADHURST

Be that as it may, I think it would be scarcely fair to my right hon. Friend to take further proceedings on this measure, at 3 o'clock in the morning following the morning upon which my right hon. Friend was here until 4 o'clock, without giving him some notice of intention to proceed with the Bill. All I ask is that the right hon. Gentleman would consent to report Progress at once. I do not expect that the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Hallam Division of Sheffield can think anything reasonable that comes from this Bench; but I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in his opinion, it is not a reasonable request to ask him to report Progress now and take further proceedings on Wednesday? There will be plenty of time to pass the Bill after that, and therefore there can be no danger in postponing the matter for these few days. I do not think it reasonable to expect us to agree to go on with the Bill at this hour.

SIR ROBERT FOWLER (London)

I point out that as the House proposes to adjourn in an unusual way my right hon. Friend (Sir R. Assheton Cross) may not have an opportunity of bringing on the Bill. On the other hand, if it passes, it will be open to the Government to object to the Bill on Report; and, therefore, at this time of the Session, they will not injure themselves by going on with the Bill.

Clause agreed, to.

Clause 2 (Attendance at inquest of relatives of deceased person).

MR. BROADHURST

I think I am justified in complaining of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Assheton Cross) making no response whatever to the appeal I have made to him; and therefore, under the circumstances, I have no other course open to me than the very distasteful one of moving that Progress be reported.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progross, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Broadhurd.)

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

I am unable to assent to that Motion; but the responsibility must rest with the Government. I cannot see what possible objection there can be to allowing the Bill to go through. It may be that some slight alterations are necessary, and I offer every opportunity for their being considered. If the Bill is put down for Wednesday it would be impossible to proceed with it, because it is understood that the Government are going to take Supply on that day, as well as several other measures.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.)

The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken in supposing that there will be any difficulty in going on with the Bill on Wednesday. I am informed that Supply will not be taken on that day.

MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

I am in a position to know the feeling among the miners of Yorkshire with regard to this Bill, which is that they are extremely anxious that it should go forward. I trust that the colliers in every part of the country will know how vexatious an opposition has been made to this Bill on the part of the Government, and will realize who are their true friends. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Assheton Cross) not to yield to this monstrous attempt on the part of the Government to stifle this Bill from a feeling of Party jealousy.

MR. CHARLES JAMES

I hope the Government will allow this little Bill to pass to-night. If a larger Bill is passed it will repeal the smaller Acts, but many things may happen before this comes on again; and, in the meantime, the colliers will not get the benefit of a Bill which is very necessary in their interests.

MR. BROADHURST

I must complain that the right hon. Gentleman has not given my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary some Notice of his intention to proceed with this Bill. I say it is most unreasonable to ask us to go on with it at the present time. ["No, no!"] This Bill has been on the Notice Paper for a month or six weeks; and it is very unreasonable, I think, that the right hon. Gentleman should select 3 o'clock on Saturday morning, when my right hon. Friend has left, without any idea that the Bill would come on. I think it is very unreasonable that he should select this particular time at which to proceed with the measure. The right hon. Gentleman says that the Bill cannot be taken on Wednesday, because the Government will ask for Supplies. But there is no Supply to be taken on Wednesday; that is perfectly clear; and, therefore, there is every reasonable chance of the right hon. Gentleman having plenty of time on Wednesday, if he will agree to postpone the Bill until that day.

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

I am sorry I cannot agree to that proposal. I have already deferred bringing this Bill forward, owing to the request of the Secretary of State; and I cannot understand why we should not now go on with the Bill.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 60; Noes 23: Majority 37.—(Div. List, No. 130.)

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday next.