HC Deb 11 June 1886 vol 306 cc1555-64

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Payments to returning officers).

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (, &c.) Kirkcaldy

In the absence of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Dr. M'Donald), I beg to move the Amendment which stands on the Paper in his name—namely, in page 1, line 24, after "notwithstanding," to add— It shall be his duty to furnish detailed statements of his actual outlays, and to produce vouchers for all disbursements exceeding five shillings in amount.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, line 24, after the word "notwithstanding," to add the words "it shall be his duty to furnish detailed statements of his actual outlays, and to produce vouchers for all disbursements exceeding five shillings in amount."—(Sir George Campbell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. ASHER) (, &c.) Elgin

I must object to add the words of my hon. Friend, because the case in question is provided for in Clause 7.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5 (Liability of candidates).

On the Motion of Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for SCOTLAND, the following Amendment made:— In page 2, line 1, leave out from "where" to "candidate," in line 4; and in line 7, leave out "with the candidate.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 (The accounts of a returning officer may be taxed).

On the Motion of Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for SCOTLAND, the following Amendment made:—In page 3, line 6, leave out "the person to whom the account is transmitted," and insert "such candidate;" and in line 16, leave out from "apply to," to end of Clause, and insert— Make written application to the auditor of the court of session for a taxation of the account, and the auditor shall thereupon forth with proceed to tax the account, and to issue a deliverance thereon, power being hereby given to him, if he shall so desire, to refer any point or points to the judges appointed for the trial of election petitions of Scotland, under and in terms of 'The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1868,' and 'The Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act, 1879,' and either party shall have power to appeal against the deliverance of the auditor by lodging a note of objections to the said deliverance within ten days after it has been so pronounced with the said judges appointed for the trial of election petitions, who shall forthwith hear parties and decide upon the deliverance and note of objections, and their judgment shall be final. It shall be competent for the auditor to receive evidence directed to prove that the work or furnishings in respect of which charges are made could have been efficiently performed or supplied at less cost than that charged in the account. The said judges shall have power to enforce judgment for the amount of charges found due to a returning officer as if such judgment were a judgment in an action in said court, and with or without expenses, at the discretion of the court. Where an application is made for the taxation of an account, the provisions of sub-section five of the twenty-ninth section of 'The Corrupt Practices Act, 1883,' shall not apply, and it shall not be necessary that the expenses of the said returning officer shall be paid within twenty-eight days from the day on which the election is declared.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (, &c.) Kirkcaldy

I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Boyd-Kinnear)—namely, on page 3, line 26, at end, add— The auditor or the court shall be bound to receive evidence, if tendered, that the services in respect of which any charges are made could have been efficiently performed by other competent persons or in a different legal manner at a lower coat. I do not see the hon. Member in his place; but he is a Member of great experience in these matters, and I should therefore like to move the Amendment in his name.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 26, at end, add— The auditor or the court shall be bound to receive evidence, if tendered, that the services in respect of which any charges are made could have been efficiently performed by other competent persons or in a different legal manner at a lower cost."—(Sir George Campbell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. ASHER) (, &c.) Elgin

said, the Amendment was unnecessary. The hon. Member for East Fife was satisfied as to the matter raised by it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 (Notices to be given by returning officers).

On the Motion of Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for SCOTLAND, the following Amendments made:— In page 3, line 36, after "elections," insert "and of sheriff court and municipal buildings, so far as practicable;" in same line, leave out "court," and insert "auditor;" and in line 37, leave out "his," and insert "returning officers.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 (Appointment of a deputy returning officer).

On the Motion of Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for SCOTLAND, the following Amendment made:—In page 3, line 41, before "Schedule," insert "Third."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 1.

Amendment proposed, In page 5, leave out lines 8 and 9, and insert—"For publishing the notice of election and supplying the nomination papers. The actual outlay not exceeding £2 2s."—(Mr Solicitor General for Scotland.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (, &c.) Kirkcaldy

I hope the hon. and learned Solicitor General will give us some information on this subject. I observe that the hon. Member for East Fife has an Amendment on the Paper to reduce this two guineas to one guinea.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. ASHER) (, &c.) Elgin

That is so; but a Sub-Committee had sat and considered these matters, and the amount proposed had been put down to give effect to the arrangement which was effected.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

Am I to understand that this Amendment has been put down since that of the hon. Member for East Fife appeared on the Paper?

MR. ASHER

Yes, Sir; it was only put down on the Paper last night to give effect to the arrangement which has been come to.

Question put, and negatived.

Question, "That the words proposed be there added," put, and agreed to.

On the Motion of Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for SCOTLAND, the following Amendments made:—In page 5, line 10, leave out "Scotland," and insert "the sheriffdom;" line 20, after "outlay," leave out— Not exceeding £7 7s. for each polling station," and insert "not exceeding £3 3s. for each polling station where the number of voters does not exceed 700, and £2 2s. for each additional compartment required for each additional 700 voters or fraction of that number; in line 20, after "buildings," and before "for constructing," insert "or;" in line 27, after "box," insert "not being the property of a public authority;" same line, before "2 6," insert "The actual outlay not exceeding;" leave out line 28, and insert "For stationery in each polling compartment the actual outlay not exceeding 2s. 6d.;" in line 29, leave out "1 10 0," and insert "The actual outlay not exceeding 1 0 0;" and in line 30, leave out "0 15 0," and insert "The actual outlay not exceeding 0 10 0."

Amendment proposed, in page 5, line 31, after "officer," insert— At each polling station there shall be one presiding officer for the first 700 voters, and an additional presiding officer for each additional 700 voters or fraction of that number beyond the first 700."—(Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)

I do not wish to interfere; but practical experience tells me that if you have only one Returning Officer for each 700 voters, you run a great risk of breaking down towards the middle of the day, when the work gets severe. One is not enough for 700 voters.

MR. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen, E.)

The universal opinion in Scotland is that the time of the Returning Officer is not nearly fully occupied; and it is believed that there will be no difficulty in working out the provisions of this clause.

Question put, and agreed to; words inserted accordingly, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made.

On the Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following Amendments made:—

In page 7, leave outlines 18 and 19, and insert— For publishing the notice of election and supplying the nomination papers, the actual outlay not exceeding £2 2s.; line 23, leave out "Scotland," and insert "the sheriffdom;" line 24, after "outlay," leave out— Not exceeding £7 7s." to "used," and insert "not exceeding £3 3s. for each polling station where the number of voters does not exceed 700, and £2 2s. for each additional compartment required for each additional 700 voters or fraction of that number; line 20, after "buildings," and before "constructing," insert "or;" line 35, after "compartments," add "where the number of voters does not exceed 1,400;" line 36, leave out "such," and insert "each;" in page 8, line 4, after "box," insert "not being the property of a public authority; line 4, before "0 2 6," insert "The actual outlay not exceeding;" leave out line 6, and insert "For stationery in each polling compartment, the actual outlay not exceeding "0 5 0;" line 6, leave out "0 10 0," and insert "The actual outlay not exceeding "1 0 0;" line 10, leave out "0 15 0," and insert "the actual outlay not exceeding 0 10 0;" line 11, before "0 1 0," insert "the actual outlay not exceeding;" line 11, after "0 1 0," add— For preparing and publishing notice of sub-agents, for each candidate the actual outlay not exceeding £1 1s., and 10s. for each sub-agent named in addition to the first; line 12, after "officer," add— At each polling station there shall be one presiding officer for the first 700 voters, and an additional presiding officer for each additional 700 voters or fraction of that number beyond the first 700; line 14, leave out "at each polling station," and insert "to each presiding officer;" line 16, leave out "500," twice, and insert "700," in each place; leave out line 18; line 20, leave out "eight," and insert "six;" line 21, leave out "4,000," and insert "3,000;" line 21, leave out "1,000," and insert "2,000;" line 23, before "1 1 0," insert "the actual outlay not exceeding;" line 25, leave out "£20," and insert "£10;" line 27, leave out "1,000," and insert "2,000;" line 30, leave out from "£25," to "sums" inline 41, and insert— £20, and an additional £1 for every 1,000 registered electors or fraction thereof above 6,000. In an uncontested election one-half of the above sums; line 42, after "0 1 0," insert "no travelling expenses to be allowed beyond the limits of the sheriffdom;" in page 9, line 1, leave out "services and expenses in relation to receiving and."

Amendment proposed, in page 9, line 7, leave out "£2 2s.," and insert "the actual outlay not exceeding £4 4s."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That '£2 2s.' remain part of the Schedule."

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

All the changes hitherto have been in the nature of a reduction; but I observe here an increase—a rise from two guineas to four guineas. I should like to know if that is necessary.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. ASHER)

The explanation is this—that in every other case the publication has been by notice posted up; but in this case provision is made for giving the notice in the newspapers. The matter has been inquired into, and it has been found that it is impossible to fulfil this statutory duty for less than £4 4s.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

What has been the amount allowed hitherto? Has it been £4 4s.?

MR. CHANCE

The amount in both England and Ireland is £2 2s. The fact is, the more money you spend on these matters the higher the charges become. It is usual to give 1s. a-line—the charge is made, and the candidates are afraid to refuse. There is no reason why the charge should be more than 4d. or 6d. a-line, like other advertisements. This is simply an inducement to the papers to raise their prices at Election time.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. ASHER)

We have inquired into this matter, and the result of that inquiry has been to show that the statutory requirements cannot be complied with. There is no means of compelling the newspapers to publish these things at less than their customary charges.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

I give Her Majesty's Government credit for a general desire to reduce these charges. It is a fact that in England and Ireland this charge is limited to £2 2s., and I do not see why in Scotland we should pay more than that amount. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Chance) is generally pretty correct in these matters.

MR. CHANCE

It is not two guineas in every case in Ireland. It is two in the counties of England and Ireland, and only one in the Irish boroughs.

MR. ESSLEMONT

It seems to be a statutory obligation to publish in two newspapers. The remedy, undoubtedly, would be to alter the Schedule, so that this would not be a statutory obligation. The difficulty that occurred to us was that it was laid on the Returning Officer to make the publication, and there was no way of compelling the newspapers to fix their charges, so that the Returning Officer would not suffer personal loss. The remedy for this state of things would be to provide that it should not be obligatory on the Returning Officer to publish in the newspapers. In that case, he would publish in some other way, so long as the newspapers refused to accept the amount he was prepared to give them. Although our desire was to be economical, we wish to avoid placing on the Returning Officer a statutable obligation which he could not perform without personal loss.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

Could not this be altered before the Bill is passed?

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. ASHER)

At present, there is no statutory scale regulating these charges. The amount of them is entirely left to the discretion of the Returning Officer, so that this would be imposing on him a restraint for the first time.

MR. CHANCE

I am very much astonished that it has been discovered that two guineas is not enough for Scotland, and that four is necessary. In 1874, before the Act of 1875, which deals with England and Ireland was passed, a Select Committee sat and examined a number of Sheriffs, Sub-Sheriffs, Town Clerks, and other witnesses on the question, and the result was that a sort of contract was made with these gentlemen, and two guineas were agreed upon in the case of counties and one in the case of boroughs. No complaint has been made as to the sufficiency of these sums; therefore, it appears to me unreasonable to fix the amount at four guineas.

Question, "That '£2 2s.' remain part of the Schedule," put, and negatived.

Question, "That '£4 4s.' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

On the Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following Amendments were made:—In First Schedule, page 9, line 6, leave out "and an additional £1 for every 1,000 electors or fraction thereof above 1,000;" in page 10, line 10, leave out from "400," to end of Schedule, and insert—

275 200
Where the registered electors exceed 4,000 but do not exceed 7,000 430 250
Where the registered electors exceed 7,000 but do not exceed 10,000 550 300
Where the registered electors exceed 10,000 but do not exceed 15,000 700 450
Where the registered electors exceed 15,000 but do not exceed 20,000 800 500
Where the registered electors exceed 20,000 but do not exceed 30,000 900 600
Where the registered electors exceed 30,000 but do not exceed 40,000 1,000 700

Schedule 2.

MR. ESSLEMONT

I beg to move, in the Second Schedule, to strike out lines 7, 8, and 9 on page 10. It will be in the recollection of the Committee that this raises the question discussed last night as to the Irish and English Schedule. As this important alteration was made in the measure affecting England and Ireland, it seems to me that it ought also to be made here, so that there may be no difference in the matter between England, Scotland, and Ireland. I have no doubt that candidates in Scotland will be found equally as reliable as candidates in England and Ireland, and there is no reason why the securities in Scotland should be fixed at a higher rate than they are in the other countries. There is one exception to be made in the application of this Amendment—the case of Dundee. That is the one double constituency in regard to which a higher rate should be fixed; but, in every other case, the rates should, I think, be made the same as those for England and Ireland.

Amendment proposed, in page 10, to leave out lines 7, 8, and 9.—(Mr. Esslemont.)

Question proposed, "That the lines proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. ASHER)

The figures which are stated in this Schedule were adjusted at a meeting of Scotch Members; accordingly, I thought it my duty to make the Motion that this Schedule should form part of the Bill. But I am aware of the result of the discussion last night, when it was the unanimous opinion of the House that the amount of security the Returning Officer should be allowed to exact should be a very much smaller sum than that agreed upon by the Scotch Members; and I think the proper course to take now would be to omit this Schedule altogether, or not to proceed with this Amendment, on the understanding that we should bring up words on Report that will give effect in the Scotch Act to precisely the same principle adopted in the English and Irish Acts.

THE CHAIRMAN

Does the hon. Member withdraw the Amendment?

MR. ESSLEMONT

Yes, I withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On the Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following Amendment made:—In page 10, leave out Note to Second Schedule, and add—

Third Schedule.
£ s. d.
(1.) At a contested election. For every thousand or part of a thousand electors in the constituency 1 10 0
(2.) At an uncontested election. For every thousand or part of a thousand electors 0 10 0

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Wednesday next, and to be printed, [Bill 281.]