§ SIR ROBERT FOWLER,in asking the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether his attention has been called to the land claims in Bechuanaland, the title of the Boers to land in Zululand, and the sale of intoxicating drinks in the Transkeian territory? said, he thought that, even though they might not go so far in opinion upon the drink question as Sir Wilfrid Lawson, they would all acknowledge that the drink traffic among uncivilized races led to great abominations.
§ MR. A. W. HALLasked for an explanation of the meaning of the Suzerain rights which Her Majesty exercised over Bechuanaland; and for some information as to the commercial relations with the Transvaal?
§ THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN),in reply, said, that on the 7th of October a Land Commission was appointed in Bechuanaland, of which Mr. Justice Shippard was President, supported by two other Commissioners. The object of the Commission was to inquire into and report on the validity of land claims, and to ascertain what persons had good and valid titles to land. The Commission had been at work for about three months, and had apparently given satisfaction. The Instructions given by Sir Hercules Robinson to the Commissioners were in print, and would shortly be 722 issued to the House. Those Instructions made special provision for marking off a sufficient amount of grazing and garden land for the support of the Native tribes; and the Commission were also to report upon the validity of European claims. Affairs in Zululand would not be allowed by the present Heads of the Colonial Office to pass as matters of indifference to this country. He would admit that the country was not in a satisfactory condition; but he did not think it could be termed lawless. During the last three years, subsequent to the death of Cetewayo, numerous intertribal disputes had taken place, in the course of which, the Usutus having called in the Boers to assist them against the Chief Usibepu, the Boers had since remained in the country, and established themselves on land which they had appropriated to their own use; and, therefore, a telegram, dated the 4th of January last, had been despatched to Sir Charles Mitchell by the late Colonial Secretary, which he read to the House, and which marked out generally the policy which the present Government were prepared to follow in regard to the Boers in Zululand. With reference to the sale of intoxicating liquors in the Transkeian territory, he was not able at present to give an answer to the hon. Gentleman's Question, having been so short a time—only a week—in Office, and he thought he was entitled to fuller Notice; but if the Question were repeated next week, he would endeavour to give the fullest information which might then be at his disposal. He believed, however, there was a prohibitory Proclamation of the nature referred to by the hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Fowler) in force throughout the country.
§ SIR FREDERICK STANLEYsaid, he desired to express his satisfaction at what had fallen from the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) with reference to the question of policy in Zululand, although he had not been able to hear his observations regarding Bechuanaland. He (Sir Frederick Stanley) was glad to find that Her Majesty's Advisers, like Her late ones, were not prepared to allow matters in Zululand to be viewed with indifference in this country. He must frankly take upon himself any blame 723 there might be for any want of action during the past six months with regard to Zululand. When Dinizulu, the son of Cetewayo, had invited some of the Boers in the Transvaal to assist him in the intertribal war beyond the Reserve, certain of the Boers took advantage of the Treaty that was made, being vague in its terms as to the extent of the land and the number of persons to whom it applied. He wished that he could think that both the Boers and the Zulus had been otherwise than willing to leave the Treaty in a condition that was as indefinite as possible. In fact, he fully believed that the terms, which were unnecessarily vague, were purposely left so with the knowledge of many persons upon both sides. A very much larger number of Boers, in consequence, than those with whom the Zulus had been in correspondence flocked in, and on the strength of the agreement began to settle down and surveyor "ride out" part of the country. They had done this in the name of a body which was set up calling itself the "New Republic." Mr. Essellon, the so-called Secretary of State of that body, a gentleman of very great ability, came over to England to see him, and to ask for recognition from Her Majesty's late Government. On the advice of his Colleagues, he (Sir Frederick Stanley) was compelled to reply that recognition could not be accorded; and up to the present time the "New Republic" had not been recognized, except as a certain number of individuals acting together with no authority as a State. The "New Republic," however, or persons acting on its behalf, began to mark out farms right down to St. Lucia Bay, where, whatever might be the value of the territory as regarded the future, the Protectorate of this country had been declared. That was known to the Boers, and it was clear that Her Majesty's Government could not allow any interference with the territory. Perhaps he might say that having regard to the state of political affairs, and of the possibility of that which had since come to pass, he did not wish to lead the Zulus, or any persons, to believe that Her Majesty's Government were going to take a course of action distinctly in favour of the Zulus, or one distinctly against their claims; because, having in view—and he said this without meaning to be offensive—what had occurred in the case of 724 a reversal before, he considered it would be wrong to lead them to believe that this country would give them such active support as would induce them to take up a position which the predecisions of the late Government might not sustain. He had had an opportunity of consulting Sir Henry Bulwer upon this question; and his views as to what action with regard to Zululand would be practicable and expedient had been embodied in certain Papers. The policy which he (Sir Frederick Stanley) was prepared to recommend to his Colleagues, but which circumstances had prevented him doing, was embodied in a Memorandum which he frankly placed at the disposal of his noble Friend who had succeeded him in Office. His own view was this—he believed that the Boers, whether they called them the "New Republic" or not, had acquired moral rights to some extent by lapse of time, by tacit recognition on the part of the late Government and their Predecessors, and by right of Treaty, although the latter had been unduly strained. They could not, therefore, be treated as interlopers, and certainly ought not to be dispossessed by any force without full inquiry. On the other hand, as he had stated, there could be no moral doubt that the Treaty had been strained much too far; for some who certainly had taken no part in the war now claimed under the agreement. The Zulus had, for the first time, submitted the state of affairs to us, in order to effect an arrangement, so that now there were three parties concerned in these matters. There were the Boers who claimed the farms they occupied, there were the Zulus who asked to be defended, and there was Natal whose interests were the most important of all. He was not without hope that the services of some person possessed of influence like Mr. Eandolph—a gentleman who had the rare merit of combining in his own person the confidence both of the Dutch and the English Colonists, and who, from his knowledge of the locality, was well qualified for advising what the Government should and should not allow—might be made use of in arranging a fair boundary. What he had seen in the newspapers that morning encouraged him in thinking that that might be done. He did not believe that the New Republic of the Boers would be dissatisfied if, whilst refusing 725 to treat with them as a separate body, we advised that recognition by the Zulus of certain terms to be prepared. He believed it would be perfectly consistent with the interests of this country, of the Zulus, and of the Transvaal, that a delimitation should be made by amicable arrangement, though, judging from the past, he did not suppose it would be altogether free from danger or difficulty. He thought he was doing the best in his power by bringing all these matters as far as possible upon a road which would be common to the late Government and their Successors. He was simply speaking for himself, and he was glad, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had said that Lord Granville saw no reason to depart from the course hitherto pursued; and he might possibly bring these matters, without the interposition of an armed force, to an amicable settlement. Up to the time he (Sir Frederick Stanley) left Office the latest information with respect to Bechuanaland was satisfactory. The Land Commission was either sitting or about to sit; and nothing could have exceeded the satisfactory nature of the general Reports that the Colonial Office had received on the subject. As those who took an interest in the matter were aware, the late Government departed, to some extent, from the general Protectorate which their Predecessors had assumed in respect of carrying the Protectorate up to, he believed, Parallel 22. They did not think, with regard to the territory immediately adjacent to the Cape Colony, that it was sufficient, on the one hand, to extend it, or, on the other, to annex it, to the Cape Colony. Therefore, they advised Her Majesty to extend her dominion, to take in Stella-land, and that over that territory British law might be administered in the same way as in other parts of Her Majesty's territories. In connection with this matter he must mention the name of Mr. Shippard, a gentleman who commanded the confidence of every place to which he had gone. Sir Hercules Robinson had visited Bechuanaland, and had seen how Mr. Shippard's work had proceeded; and he believed that the country might soon settle down and become quiet by means of the police which had been established. Those who knew the country said that the police were better, for all practical purposes, than a military 726 force. A certain attempt which might have turned to filibustering had been made soon after the establishment of the police; and it was necessary to take the precautionary step of arresting certain persons engaged in it. If filibustering was promptly dealt with in that way, a great deal would be done for the pacification of the country. The reports from Basutoland, also, were highly satisfactory. Too much could not be said in praise of the Resident, Colonel Clarke, who exercised a remarkable degree of influence over those with whom he came in contact. The Chiefs appeared to have come under his sway; and certainly the pacification of Basutoland was greatly due to the personal influence of that officer. He begged to apologize for intruding on the House; but as his own action had been alluded to he thought it right to state what had taken place when he was at the Colonial Office.
§ Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.