HC Deb 01 April 1886 vol 304 cc577-83

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 5 (Consequence of lord's failure to give notice).

On the Motion of Mr. CHARLES JAMES, the following Amendments made:—In page 2, line 14, after "enrolment," insert "or death or alienation;" and in line 15, after "steward," insert "nor shall the land be liable to escheat or forfeiture to the lord."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 (Mode and costs of ascertaining compensation if not ascertained under preceding provisions).

On the Motion of Mr. CHARLES JAMES, the following Amendment made:—In page 3, line 14, at end, add— The Commissioners shall have power to extend the period of six months hereinbefore men- tioned as they shall see fit, on the joint application of the lord and tenant.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7, 8, and 9, severally agreed to.

Clause 10 (As to duties of valuer and umpire).

VISCOUNT GRIMSTON (Herts, St. Albans)

I rise to move the omission from the clause of the words which provide that the valuers shall in every case deliver the details of the valuation to the Commissioners, who, if it appears to them incorrect, may remit the valuation for reconsideration and correction; and if the valuer neglects or refuses to amend the valuation, the Commissioners may determine the value of the various rights and incidents at such sum as they may deem just and reasonable. I trust the Committee will accept the Amendment. Why the Commissioners should revise the decision of the valuers I cannot understand. It is most natural to suppose that the best person as valuer will be chosen, and that he will be perfectly conversant with the facts of the case. The Commission, I imagine, will not have an opportunity of viewing the land; and any steps taken to ascertain the value of the manorial rights and incidents would involve great additional trouble and expense. The natural result of this rule being followed would be that the Commissioners would go by what I may call rule of thumb, which would act very unfairly; and in this I speak as much on behalf of the copyhold tenant as the lord.

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 32, to leave out all after "to prescribe" to the end of the Clause.—(Viscount Grimston.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. MELLOR) (Grantham)

I hope the noble Viscount will not press this Amendment. The object of the clause is very plain. It was inserted by the Committee because it was found that in many cases the valuations had been excessive; and it was suggested that in the cases described the Commissioners should examine the valuation, and, if necessary, send it back to the valuer.

MR. T. H. BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.)

Clause 11 gives the Commissioners power to frame and publish a scale of compen- sation; and unless they have the opportunity of revising the decisions arrived at between the valuers it would be useless to give them the power of fixing a scale of compensation. Clause 11 is, to a certain extent, associated with Clause 10; and if this Amendment were agreed to, the two clauses would have to be reconstructed.

MR. STUART-WORTLEY (Sheffield, Hallam)

It seems to me that if this clause makes the valuation of the valuer useless we had better confine ourselves to the valuation of the Commission.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 11 (Commissioners to publish a scale of compensation).

MR. T. H. BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.)

I suggest that it would be desirable, at a later stage of the Bill, to put in words to control the discretion of the Commissioners.

THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. COURTNEY) (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Unless the hon. Member has an Amendment to move before the next on the Paper he is out of Order in his remarks.

On the Motion of Mr. CHARLES JAMES, the following Amendments made:—In page 5, lines 1 and 8, after "shall," leave out "from time to time;" and in line 10, at end, add—"The Commissioners may, from time to time, vary any such, scales."

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

MR. T. H. BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.)

I venture to suggest that, at some later stage of the Bill, we should place some control on the absolute discretion of the Commissioners to frame and publish a scale of compensation. If a clause were inserted that every scale of compensation should be laid upon the Table of the House, and not be operative until a certain time had elapsed, I think it would be only imposing a wholesome restriction upon this very arbitrary power which is vested in the Commissioners. This scale is one which, although it is in the nature of a recommendation, will practically fix the amount of compensation; and it is desirable, when you are giving such great power to Commissioners, that they should be under a sense of responsibility. Therefore, I suggest to the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill the desirability of insuring, in some form, that this wide discretion should be exercised with care and judgment. I have no doubt of the desire to do justice on the part of the Commissioners; but, as it is quite unprecedented to give such a power as the clause confers upon them, I suggest that it should be limited in the direction which I have indicated.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clauses 12 and 13 severally agreed to.

Clause 14 (In case of death proceedings not to abate).

On the Motion of Mr. CHARLES JAMES, the following Amendment made:—In page 6, line 5, after "eighty," leave out "five," and insert "six."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 (Compensation to be secured by rent-charge).

VISCOUNT GRIMSTON (St. Albans)

It would be hard on the lord that there should be power to create a rent-charge where the amount is so low as £2 per annum; and my object is to prevent the creation of a multitude of small rent-charges. It is well known that the steward receives certain fees for collecting quit-rents; but when this Bill becomes law the lord will have to pay another person for collecting these charges, and, practically, the major part of the amount of the rent-charge would be swallowed up in the cost of collection.

Amendment proposed, in page 6, line 28, after "award," insert "if it exceeds the sum of fifty pounds such, compensation."—(Viscount Grimston.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. T. H. BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.)

This is one of a series of Amendments to the clause, and its effect is to introduce an entirely new principle in connection with the enfranchisement of copyhold. The effect of the Amendment is to impose upon the tenant, when compelled to enfranchise, the liability to pay money down in lieu of a rent-charge. ["No, no!"] The noble Viscount denies that; but such is the effect of his Amendment. Instead of the lord receiving a small rent-charge, he is to receive a capital sum. The noble Viscount proposes that the lord is to receive a sum of money down, or, in effect, larger compensation than would otherwise be awarded to him. That is introducing altogether a new principle in the law of enfranchisement, to the benefit of the lord and at the charge of the tenant; and it is one to which, in my opinion, the Committee ought not to assent. It is admitted by the noble Viscount that it gives an advantage to the lord, and I submit that such ought not to be given.

VISCOUNT GRIMSTON

But I say that the advantage to the lord would disappear. There is a clause in the Bill under which the copyhold tenant can raise money for the purpose of paying off the lord, which would enable him to do this without creating an annual rent-charge. Under my Amendment the tenant would save this extra charge.

MR. T. H. BOLTON

In other words, the tenant would have to go to the expense of a mortgage to raise money on the land for the benefit of the lord.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. MELLOR) (Grantham)

I am afraid it would be impossible for the Government to accept the Amendment; because, as has been pointed out, the small copyholder would have to pay down a sum which would be an inconvenience to him, and the object of the Bill is to make enfranchisement easy for small copyholders. If the Amendment were accepted, he would not only have to pay compensation to the lord, but compensation to the steward, and he would have to pay a fine. Under the circumstances, I hope the noble Viscount will not press his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 15 and 16 severally agreed to.

Clause 17 (Declaration to be made by lord or steward).

On the Motion of Mr. CHARLES JAMES, the following Amendments made:—In page 7, line 35, after "award," insert "or deed;" and in line 35, leave out "this Act," and insert "the Copyhold Acts."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 18 to 22 severally agreed to.

Clauses 23 to 26, inclusive, severally agreed to, with Amendments.

Clauses 27 to 30, inclusive, severally agreed to.

Clause 31 (Saving power to enfranchise by deed).

On the Motion of Viscount GRIMSTON, the following Amendment made:—In page 13, line 36, after "lord," insert "or other parties by direction of any lord."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 32 to 46, inclusive, severally agreed to, with Amendments.

Clause 47 (Costs of enfranchisement).

On the Motion of Mr. CHARLES JAMES, the following Amendment made:—In lines 15 and 16, leave out "commenced and made after the passing," and insert "by award after next admittance or enrolment made under the provisions."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 48 to 55, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.

VISCOUNT GRIMSTON (St. Alban's)

, in rising to move the insertion of a new clause, said: I will endeavour to show the injury which this clause is intended to remedy. Let the Committee imagine that the whole of this House is a sporting manor—that the two Benches are a freehold, and that the floor is copyhold. It is obvious that if the floor were enfranchised, the benches would be of no value for sporting; so, in the case of an acre of land in the midst of a field, the owner might sit there all day long and shoot the game. It is to endeavour to remedy such an injustice that I ask that the clause may be read a second time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."—(Viscount Grimston.)

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. BROADHURST) (Birmingham, Bordesley)

I think it likely that there may not be much opposition to the clause; but, having regard to the fact that several hon. Members present wish for an opportunity of considering it, I think it would be well that Progress should be reported.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Broadhurst.)

MR. STAFFORD HOWARD (Gloucester, Thornbury)

I do not wish to express any opinion upon the clause now; but shall reserve my judgment upon the matter.

Question put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.