HC Deb 19 May 1885 vol 298 cc910-6

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Mr. Dillwyn.)

MR. BIGGAR,

in moving— That the Bill be re-committed, in order that provision may be made that the two additional Governors of the Hospital shall be nominated from time to time by the Corporation of the City of Limerick, said, that the sole object of the Bill was to amend an Act passed in the 11th year of the Reign of George IV., entitled—"An Act for the management and direction of the Hospital founded by Joseph Barrington and his Sons in the City of Limerick," by constituting for all future time the Roman Catholic Bishop of the diocese of Limerick and the parish priest of St. Mary's, Limerick, the two additional Governors of the Hospital which the Bill proposed to create. Of course, he would have no fault to find with this provision of the Bill under ordinary circumstances, because he presumed that the Bishop of Limerick and the parish priest of St. Mary's would be gentlemen who would take a proper interest in the due admi- nistration of the charity; but it might so happen that from old age or ill-health those gentlemen would find themselves unable to discharge the duties of the office. The position of Bishop, like that of parish priest, was of a practically permanent character; and if either of these became infirm, or had no time to spare from the performance of their own clerical duties for the discharge of the duties attaching to the Governors of this Charity, there would be no power to replace them, and the interests of the hospital would suffer in consequence. He, therefore, proposed that the Bill should be re-committed, in order that the nomination of the two Governors should be placed in the hands of the Corporation of Limerick. In his opinion, the Corporation of Limerick were the most desirable body to entrust with the appointment, and he might add that lie proposed the re-committal of the Bill on behalf of that body. If this power were given to the Corporation they would from time to time select gentlemen in the prime of life who took a special interest in institutions of this kind, and who would undoubtedly be more active and efficient members of the Board of Governors than the Bishop of Limerick and the parish priest of St. Mary's could possibly be. He hoped it would be understood that he had not the slightest objection to the present Bishop and parish priest. On the contrary, he believed them to be two gentlemen who were perfectly competent to fulfil all the duties of the office, and to fill them to the satisfaction of everybody concerned; but there was no certainty as to who the successors of those gentlemen would be, or whether they would take the slightest interest in the administration of the affairs of the hospital. It was also probable that, in the nature of things, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Limerick and the parish priest of St. Mary's, as time passed away, from old age or infirmity, or a pressure of their own religious duties, would become year by year less able to look after the interests of the charity; whereas if such a thing occurred in reference to the nominees of the Corporation, there would be power to replace them by younger and more active men. He, therefore, moved the re-committal of the Bill for the purpose of making provision for the nomination of the two additional Governors by the Corporation of the City of Limerick.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "be," to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "re-committed, in order that provision may be made that the two additional Governors of the Hospital shall be nominated from time to time by the Corporation of the City of Limerick,"—(Mr. Biggar,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words 'now read the third time' stand part of the Question."

MR. JOHN O'CONNOR

said, he desired to support the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar), and in doing so he wished it to be clearly understood that he meant no disrespect whatever to the Bishop of Limerick, or the priest whom it was intended to associate with him in carrying out the important objects of this institution. He had no doubt, as his hon. Friend had stated, that the administration of the hospital would be in very good hands indeed if the Bishop of Limerick and the parish priest of St. Mary's were appointed; but he felt that the time had passed when institutions of this nature could be well administered by clerical gentlemen. He believed the time had passed when high dignitaries of the Church and clergymen would care to be so intimately associated with these institutions as they had been in the past; and the time had arrived when it was necessary that corporate bodies should guard with a jealous eye their management and administration of all institutions that had been established for the purpose of alleviating the sufferings of the people, and attending to the wants of the poor. From time to time it would become necessary for the Corporations of Ireland to institute inquiries into the management of the hospitals which existed in that country; and it had been found, owing to the onerous nature of the duties which the Roman Catholic Bishops and priests, and the clergy of other denominations, and the scanty supervision they were in consequence able to exercise, that many irregularities had crept into the management of these institutions. But if the Corporation of Ireland were allowed to supervise the administration, the judicial and business aptitude of the new members who joined these Corporations from time to time could be utilized, and their energy and knowledge of public affairs would be brought to bear upon the fulfilment of these duties, so that they would be able to inquire into any irregularities which might be committed, and to remedy any abuses that might have crept in from time to time, owing to the inattention of the other Governors to the discharge of their duties. It was upon these grounds that he felt it his duty to back up and endorse the representations which had been made by his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan; and he trusted that those representations would not only be met in the spirit in which they had been offered, but that the House would endorse and carry the Motion of his hon. Friend, and vest the appointment of the two additional Governors which the Bill proposed to create in the hands of the Corporation of the City of Limerick.

COLONEL NOLAN

said, he knew nothing about the present Bill, nor of the hospital to which it related; and his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan was generally so enlightened in his views, and so accurate in the objections he took, that it was with a good deal of hesitation he (Colonel Nolan) ventured to point out a course which he thought would be much more satisfactory than the one which his hon. Friend was now taking—namely, to allow the Bill to pass in its present form, and then to bring in a new Bill giving the power of nominating two additional Governors to the Corporation of the City of Limerick. His own opinion was that it would be most useful to have the Roman Catholic Bishop of the diocese, in association with the parish priest, upon the Board of Governors; and it would also be useful hereafter to have upon the same Board the business experience and knowledge which would be possessed by two members of the Corporation of Limerick. He was able to speak from personal experience of the great advantage of having a Bishop connected with the management and administration of charities of this kind. He might mention a case in which the Archbishop of Tuam had rendered extremely valuable service as one of the Governors of the Asylum at Westport, in the county of Mayo. He had heard from several persons that the Archbishop had been of considerable value in the management of the Asylum. He certainly differed from his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan in the opinion that the Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland were too old or too infirm to do the work that would be required of them. He had known of very few cases indeed in Ireland whore the Archbishops or Bishops had been found, at any time, in consequence of old age or infirmity, unfit to do the work entrusted to them. One of the oldest men upon the Roman Catholic Episcopal Bench in Ireland was the late Archbishop of Tuam; but until within six months of his death—and the Archbishop lived until the age of 90—the right reverend Prelate was active and vigorous. He did not think, therefore, that the argument of his hon. Friend carried much weight with it; and, so far as the parish priest of St. Mary's was concerned, the value of having a parish priest upon the managing Board of a hospital of this kind would be self-evident. As he had stated, he knew nothing of the Bill; but, taking the sketch of it which had been given by his hon. Friend, he thought it was a most valuable measure, and he should certainly support it. At the same time, he thought it would be useful if some Representative of the Government would state whether they would feel inclined to give facilities for the introduction and passing of a new Bill. In that case, he had no doubt his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar), and his hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary (Mr. John O'Connor), would undertake to bring in a Bill for the purpose of empowering the Corporation of the City of Limerick to nominate two members of the Governing Body. But he felt that he could not oppose the present Bill for placing on the Board the Bishop of the diocese and the parish priest of St. Mary's.

SIR ARTHUR OTWAY

said, he was not in a position to express an opinion upon the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Colonel Nolan), as to whether it was desirable to afford facilities for the introduction of a new Bill. It was no part of his duty to pronounce an opinion upon that point; but, in regard to the present Bill, the question for the consideration of the House seemed to him to be a very simple one. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) proposed that the Bill which now came before the House for a third reading should be re-committed, in order that two members of the Limerick Corporation should be nominated as Governors of this Charity. Before the House consented to take the unusual course of re-committing a Bill on the third reading, in order that two other Governors of the Hospital should be substituted for those now proposed by the Bill, it was incumbent upon the hon. Member to show that the present Governors were either insufficient in number, or in some way disqualified to perform the duties of the office. In a few words, he would explain to the House exactly how the matter stood. This hospital was founded by Sir Joseph Barrington, and it was at present managed and directed under an Act passed in the 11th year of the Reign of George IV. The Governing Body, as constituted by that Act, consisted of the Bishop of the diocese of Limerick, the Rector of the parish in which the hospital was situated, the Mayor of the City of Limerick, the Representative of the City in Parliament, and the President of the Limerick Chamber of Commerce, and the Right Rev. Dr. John Ryan, D.D., who, he presumed, was the Roman Catholic Bishop of Limerick at the time. The Governing Body also included every donor of 20 guineas in one sum, and every annual subscriber of three guineas. It, therefore, seemed to him that the Institution possessed a very large Governing Body, and one that was of a very representative character, seeing that any person who was minded to subscribe three guineas a-year or to give a donation of 20 guineas at once became a Governor. It appeared to him that the Bill was of a very proper character; it contained one simple provision adding to the Governing Body the Roman Catholic Bishop of Limerick and the parish priest of St. Mary's for the time being, and when the Bill came before him he had no hesitation in giving his assent to it. It simply added two well-qualified persons to the existing Governing Body—a numerous Governing Body, no doubt, with some of them well qualified, and all of them qualified in some way or other. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) objected to the addition of the Roman Catholic Bishop and parish priest, on the ground that those gentlemen might grow old or possibly infirm. But that was not an infirmity confined to Roman Catholic clergymen; it extended to others just as well; but he presumed that when a Roman Catholic Bishop became old or infirm it was customary to appoint a coadjutor, who would be able to perform all the duties and undertake all the work of the Bishop. Under the circumstances, he could really see no reason for the suggestion which had been made by the hon. Member for Cavan. He (Sir Arthur Otway) had shown that there was already a very numerous Board of Governors; that it contained upon it certain persons who were very well qualified to act as Governors, and if to these were added the Roman Catholic Bishop of Limerick and the parish priest of St. Mary's he certainly did not see any possible reason why the Bill should be re-committed in order to add two members from the Corporation of Limerick, or to substitute two members of the Corporation for the two members proposed by the Bill.

MR. SEXTON

expressed a hope that, after the explanation which had been given by the hon. Gentleman the Chairman of Committees, his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan would not press the Motion.

MR. SPEAKER

Does the hon. Member withdraw the Motion?

MR. BIGGAR

said, that, after the recommendation he had received from his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton), he would not put the House to the trouble of a division.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put.

Bill read the third time, and passed.