HC Deb 14 May 1885 vol 298 cc552-65

On the Motion of Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, the following Amendments made:—In page 36, line 2, after "parties," insert "not being persons named in any list of claimants;" and in line 10, leave out from "on," to "dated," in line 21, and insert— Here the objector shall specifically state the ground or grounds of his objection. He shall be deemed to have satisfied this provision by naming the column or columns of the register on which he grounds his objection, as thus:— And I ground my objection on the column of the register headed—

[Here specify column by reference to its heading]."

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

said, he had now to move that the Bill be re-committed with respect to the two money clauses.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be re-committed with respect to new Clauses regarding temporary provision for remuneration of local officials, and contribution to cost of registration in borough of Dublin by townships of Pembroke and Black-rock."—(Mr. Campbell-Bannerman.)

MR. SMALL,

in moving to add at the end of the Motion the words "and contribution to cost of registration in borough of Newry by counties of Down and Armagh," said, he inferred from the proposal just made by the Chief Secretary for Ireland that he intended to exclude the case of Newry; and his (Mr. Small's) object in moving this addition to the question was to extend the terms of the re-committal of the Bill so that the Committee should have the opportunity of considering the propriety of requiring a contribution from the counties of Down and Armagh towards the costs of registration in the borough of Newry. If the right hon. Gentleman would indicate that he would accept this proposal he (Mr. Small) would be satisfied, and would defer the discussion of the question until the Bill was in Committee. As the right hon. Gentleman made no motion of assent, he had no alternative but to enter upon the discussion at once. Formerly the Grand Juries were the persons who paid the Town Clerks for the revision of the lists of voters; but by a local Act of Parliament the cost in this case was transferred from the counties, and was made a special charge upon the borough of Newry. The Newry Im- provement Act was passed in 1871, and one of the provisions of that Act, by an omission, transferred the cost of the revision from the counties of Down and Armagh to the town of Newry. At the time the change was made, it was not taken into consideration that the Parliamentary borough of Newry extended beyond the town of Newry into the two counties mentioned; and the consequence was that the people of Newry were now required to pay out of the local rates for the expense of registering voters who did not reside within the municipality, or contribute one farthing towards the municipal rates. That was considered to be a very great hardship, and it did not exist in any other Irish borough which would survive the passing of the Redistribution Bill. Most of the Irish boroughs had become parts of county divisions. In the cases of Belfast and Londonderry, the Parliamentary and municipal limits were conterminous. The case of Newry stood by itself, because the Parliamentary limits extended far beyond the municipal boundary; and it was unreasonable and unfair that the municipality should be compelled to pay the costs of registration of those who resided outside the municipal limits, seeing that the people of Newry had also to contribute their quota towards the expense of revising the lists for the counties of Down and Armagh. When he had brought forward the question in Committee, the Chief Secretary for Ireland was ready with a great many arguments in opposition to it; but they only proved how very little the right hon. Gentleman knew about local registration in Ireland. Until the Act of 1871 was passed, the entire expenses of the revision of the borough lists for Newry was paid out of the general county funds; and all that he (Mr. Small) asked now was that the counties of Down and Armagh should resume their original liability for the registration of such voters as resided outside the municipal limits of Newry. The Chief Secretary for Ireland offered, as one argument against the proposal, that if the area of the Parliamentary and municipal limits was not in identity, as he called it, it might be changed; but throughout the whole of Ireland the rule was not to charge any special portion of a county, but the entire county at large, and it was for that reason that he proposed to spread the charge over the counties of Down and Armagh. The right hon. Gentleman further complained that no specification had been made of the particular local rates upon which the charge was to be imposed; but he might inform the right hon. Gentleman that all the rates chargeable by the Grand Juries were payable in one way, and that was out of money in the County Treasurer's hands. There was one general fund in the hands of the County Treasurer, and out of that fund all the charges which fell upon the county were defrayed. Therefore, the omission to state from what particular source this charge was to be paid was of no consequence whatever, because it would necessarily have to be paid out of the funds in the Treasurer's hands. The right hon. Gentleman further objected that no notice had been given to the persons chiefly interested of the intention to propose this change. All these matters were reported at length in the Irish newspapers; and, therefore, there had been ample notice given. It was a great hardship indeed that the people of the town of Newry should have to pay the entire cost of revising the lists of voters for a Parliamentary borough which extended far beyond the limits of the municipality into two Irish counties. If his Amendment, extending the terms of the re-committal of the Bill, were agreed to, he proposed to move the following clauses in Committee:— The treasurer of the county of Down shall repay to the town commissioners of Newry such sum each year as shall bear, to the entire expenses of the revision of the voters' lists for the borough of Newry, the same proportion as the number of electors of the said borough qualifying out of premises in the County Down portion of the said borough outside the municipal boundary bear to the entire number of electors of the borough, and the treasurer of the county of Armagh shall in like manner repay to the said town commissioners such sum each year as shall bear to the said entire expenses of revision the same proportion as the number of electors of the said borough qualifying out of premises in the County Armagh portion of the said borough outside the municipal boundary bear to the entire number of electors of the said borough. The town commissioners of Newry shall not be liable to contribute any sum towards the expenses of the revision of the voters' lists for the counties of Down and Armagh. He could not understand why the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland should object to this proposal. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to have been fully impressed with the justice of the claim made on behalf of Dublin, in the case of the parishes of Pembroke and Blackrock; and be could not understand why the right hon. Gentleman was not similarly impressed with the justice and equity of the claim of Newry. The two cases were exactly similar. The only difference was that in the case of Dublin the outside area, as he understood the right hon. Gentleman to say, was under a separate and distinct municipality; whereas in the case of the Parliamentary borough of Newry that was not so; but the outside area formed part of the large rural district of two counties. That fact, however, did not, in any respect, alter the injustice of the case. In the one case, by transferring a portion of the charge, it was handed over from one municipal body to another; and in the other, the change suggested would simply transfer the charge from a borough to the rural area of a county. At present, the entire charge of registering the voters in the counties of Down and Armagh was paid by the town of Newry; and no one would contend for a moment that the counties of Down and Armagh were not just as well able to pay their own share of the expenses. He begged, therefore, in order to bring the matter fully before the House, to move the addition to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary of which he had given Notice.

Amendment proposed, At the end of the Question, to add the words "and contribution to cost of registration in borough of Newry by counties of Down and Armagh."—(Mr. Small.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER),

in opposing the Amendment, said, there was really no ground for extending the reference to the Committee for the purpose stated by the hon. Member. Section 18 of the Newry Improvement Act of 1871 expressly provided that the borough of Newry should pay the whole of these charges, and that the counties of Down and Armagh should pay no portion of them. That was a clear and distinct Parliamentary bargain, and it would be unfair to alter it in the present Bill. As a matter of fact, the town of Newry simply paid a fair price for the privileges they had obtained. He could not, therefore, consent to extend the Motion for the purpose of inserting the clauses which had been placed on the Paper by the hon. Member.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

gathered that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General for Ireland (Mr. Walker) did not dispute the justice of the claim of the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Small). He (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) had understood the hon. and learned Gentleman to say that he would not argue against the justice of the claim now put forward, but that he opposed it on the ground that it was barred by the clause in the Act of 1871. Now, that clause, as the hon. Member (Mr. Small) pointed out, was not passed in accordance with the wishes of the people of Newry. The Town Clerk of Newry was distinctly of opinion that that clause was put into the Act, not with the consent, but without the knowledge, of the people of Newry. He (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) maintained, therefore, that the present Amendment was not barred by the clause in question. He noticed that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) had the section of the Act before him. If the right hon. Gentleman read the section over a hundred times he would never be able to cause the Irish Members to change their opinion in the matter. They must have this subject discussed on its merits, and its merits were exactly similar to those of the case of Pembroke and Blackrock. If Pembroke and Blackrock, being outside the municipal boundaries and inside the Parliamentary boundaries of Dublin, were compelled to pay their share towards registration, why should the places outside the municipal boundaries and inside the Parliamentary boundaries of the borough of Newry be exempted from the payment of their share of the cost of registration? Was there any process of reasoning by which it could be shown that one-seventh of the electorate should be put on the Register without contributing one farthing towards the expenses? His hon. Friend (Mr. Small) was quite justified in bringing forward this Amendment; and he (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) awaited, with some curiosity, the argument which could be advanced against it.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

said, that, as the hon. Member (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) had appealed to him, he would point out what appeared to him to be the difference between the case of Newry and Pembroke and Black-rock. He quite agreed it was an anomaly that certain persons outside the municipal boundaries of Newry should have their registration expenses paid by those who lived within the municipal boundaries. But it would be a still greater anomaly if the registration expenses of the electors of Newry were to be paid by people who were outside and had no connection with the borough. Precisely an analogous case would arise if they were to put the expenses of registration of Pembroke and Blackrock upon the county of Dublin. The hon. Member must see that if they did that they would create a greater anomaly than that they destroyed. At present, the voters of Newry had to pay the expenses of the registration of their fellow-voters who lived outside the municipal boundaries; but this Amendment would put the expenses upon persons in the county who had nothing whatever to do with the matter. In the case of Pembroke and Blackrock, it was not proposed to throw the registration expenses upon the county, but upon the borough of Dublin. By the consent of all parties, a perfectly just settlement in the matter could be made. He was afraid he could not support the present proposal, which was one which might with equal justice be made in very many cases. The clause in the Act of 1871 which related to Newry was framed after due consideration, and the House could not depart from it.

SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA

said, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) had advanced no reason to support his non possumus. One Act of Parliament was not more powerful than another, and in a case such as that made by the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Small) the Irish Members ought not to be met in the way suggested. The argument in favour of the Amendment was simply this—that the counties of Down and Armagh wore in receipt of the rates chargeable and payable in respect of the voters who were outside the borough of Newry. Why the charge for registration should not follow the receipt of money was more than he could understand. Now, Acts of Parliament were not like the Acts of the Medes and Persians; one Act of Parliament could be altered by another; and he failed to see why the Act of 1871 could not be altered to the extent now suggested by the Act of 1885. He hoped the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment. Nothing could be clearer than the equity of the claim put forward by the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Small), who understood the case from beginning to end better, perhaps, than any other Member of the House.

MR. BIGGAR

said, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) spoke of the difference between the townships of Pembroke and Blackrock, and the places which were situated outside the municipal boundaries, but inside the Parliamentary boundaries of Newry. The cases were very much more similar than the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was not aware that the borough of Newry paid what was called county cess to Armagh and Down for the main roads, bridges, and all affairs connected with the counties at largs. In addition to that, it was within the power of the Grand Juries of those counties, if they felt so disposed, to lay a specific tax on the part of the borough, which laid within the two counties, to cover the sum which they had to pay to the borough of Newry towards registration. Now, it was impossible for the municipal borough of Newry to charge the rate upon the outlying districts; but it was perfectly competent for the Grand Jury to do so, so that if the Amendment were adopted perfect justice would be clone—that was to say, the Parliamentary electors who lived outside the municipal boundaries would pay, not directly to the municipality of Newry, but directly to the Grand Jury, the amount of rate which it was apportioned they should pay towards the expenses of registration. Under the circumstances, he held that the Government ought to agree to this Amendment, seeing that the cases of Pembroke and Blackrock, in which they had agreed to make the necessary alteration, and Newry were, in point of fact, for all practical purposes, perfectly identical.

MR. DEASY

said, he trusted that after the argument addressed to them by the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) the Government would see their way to accede to the demand of the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Small). It did not follow that if the Bill were re-committed for the purpose of taking this subject into consideration the clause would be inserted. All the Irish Members desired was that they should have an opportunity of discussing this question, which was certainly a very important one for the people of Newry. He did not see any justice at all in compelling the electors within the municipal boundaries of Newry to bear the cost of the registration of those outside the municipal boundaries, but within the Parliamentary boundaries. It seemed an extraordinary thing that people should be allowed to vote for Members of Parliament, and yet not be called upon to pay a share towards the expenses of registration. The argument of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) was conclusive upon the point, for he distinctly stated that the Grand Juries of the counties of Down and Armagh had it in their power to put a special rate upon the electors who lived outside the municipality of Newry, but within the Parliamentary limits of the borough, towards the cost of registration. Under such circumstances, he (Mr. Deasy) felt that no valid objection could be raised by the Government against the Amendment. He could not understand why they should accept the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy) with respect to Pembroke and Blackrock, if they were not prepared to accept the proposal of the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Small). The fact that an Act of Parliament passed in 1871 bound the people of Newry to pay the expenses of registration was no argument against the proposal now made. Although the hon. and learned Solicitor General for Ireland (Mr. Walker) and the Chief Secretary (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) had stated that the people of Newry were parties to the agreement, there was the evidence of the Town Clerk of Newry, who was then Town Clerk of the borough, that the particular clause in question was inserted in the Act without the know- ledge of the people. They were no parties whatever to the agreement, and he (Mr. Deasy) saw no reason why a clause should not be inserted in this Act which would do common justice to the people of the borough. He might point out that the people of the counties of Down and Armagh had received notice that this Motion would be made, and that neither the Grand Jury nor any person in those counties had raised the slightest objection. No letter had appeared in the newspapers concerning the matter; and, indeed, there was no evidence at all that anyone in the counties interested objected to the Motion of the hon. Member for Wexford. He trusted that, even at the last moment, the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General for Ireland would see his way to extend the Motion for the re-committal of the Bill so as to embrace the views which were entertained by the hon. Member for Wexford.

MR. SEXTON

said, he supported the Motion of his hon. Friend (Mr. Small) apart from the merits of the proposition which that hon. Gentleman might have to make in Committee. He did not think this was the moment for discussing the merits of the proposal by which his hon. Friend proposed to divide the cost of registration between the municipality of Newry and the Grand Juries of Armagh and Down. But what he thought was very objectionable was, that the Government should propose to re-commit the Bill in respect to a settlement between the Corporation of Dublin and the townships of Pembroke and Blackrock, and refuse to re-commit the Bill in order to bring about a settlement with respect to the Corporation of Newry and the counties of Armagh and Down. It was extraordinary that the Government should allow the people in one part of the country to settle their differences, and refuse to allow the people of another part of the country to come to a settlement. The cases were analogous, and, therefore, why were they treated differently? There might be, in the opinion of the Government, a better case in Dublin; but, in his opinion, the nature of the cases was precisely similar. His hon. Friend (Mr. Small) had striven, on various occasions, to have this clause considered. He was put off, or coaxed off, until the state of Report. He was told that if he deferred the matter until Report it should receive attention. Now, when the Bill was to pass out of the House he made a last attempt. The tactics which had been resorted to by the Government were clever, but they were not right.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

asked, if his hon. Friend the Member for Wexford (Mr. Small) was correct in saying it was within the power of the Grand Juries to levy a rate upon these outlying districts to cover the expenses of registration?

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER)

There is no such power.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

said, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had said that very clever tactics had been pursued by the Government. Whatever was done was in accordance with the Rules. Were they to alter the Rules of the House to meet every case that arose? The reason why this clause was put off until Report was, that the authorities of the House said it could not be considered, because it was a money clause. The Government had a money clause with reference to Pembroke and Blackrock; but they found it was necessary to re-commit the Bill in order that it might be considered. It was open to the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Small) to move that the Bill be re-committed for the purpose he desired.

MR. DAWSON

said, they had not yet received a definite answer from the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General for Ireland (Mr. Walker) as to why the districts outside the municipal, but inside the Parliamentary, boundaries of Newry could not be separately taxed for the purposes of registration. He would like to know what legal objection there was to the Grand Juries levying a rate upon the districts in question for this specific purpose? He had had some experience of the work of Grand Juries, and he failed to see why arrangements could not be made to order these distinct townlands to pay their proper share of the registration expenses of the borough of Newry.

MR. LEAMY

said, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland had moved to re-commit the Bill in respect of his own clause. He did not consider it proper to move to re-commit the Bill to meet the case of Newry. All the Irish Members asked the right hon. Gentleman to do was to support the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wexford (Mr. Small), because he knew quite well that it could not be carried unless he did support it.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

said, he did not support the Motion, because he could not support the clause.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 24; Noes 58: Majority 34.—(Div. List, No. 194.)

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill re-committed; considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

moved the insertion of the following clause:— There shall he paid to every clerk of the peace who is not in receipt of a salary out of a Vote of Parliament, and to every town clerk, and to the clerk of a union, and to the several collectors of poor rates of a union, and to the Collector General of Rates in Dublin, such sum, by way of remuneration for additional duties, if any, required to he discharged by them in carrying out the registration of voters in the year one thousand eight hundred and eighty five, as the Local Government Board, having regard to the circumstances of each case, may award. Such sum shall be paid out of moneys to he provided by Parliament.

New Clause (Temporary provision for the remuneration of local officials,)—(Mr Campbell-Bannerman,—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.

Question proposed, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."

Amendment proposed, to amend the Clause, by inserting, after the words "having regard to," the words "the number of voters placed on the register in each county or borough, and to."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, to insert "other" before the word "circumstances."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question, "That that word be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

DR. LYONS

said, that in connection with this subject he wished to call attention to the fact that no provision whatever was made for the rate collectors, on whom a very considerable amount of additional duty was thrown. The position of these officers was one of considerable grievance.

THE CHAIRMAN

asked if the hon. Member intended to move an Amendment?

DR. LYONS

said, he meant to propose the addition of certain words; but, in the first place, he might be allowed to say that the rate collectors throughout the country represented to him that for the duties they were required to perform they were very inadequately remunerated. For instance, one collector informed him that he was put to the expense of 18s. per day for car hire.

MR. SEXTON

rose to Order. This clause provided for the remuneration of collectors of poor rates.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member for Dublin (Dr. Lyons) has not yet stated the words he proposes to add.

DR. LYONS

said, he was proceeding to say that the remuneration provided under the Bill for poor rate collectors was totally inadequate. He was told that in County Dublin collectors were put to the expense of 18s. per day for car hire, and the rate at which they were remunerated was 6s. 10d. for 41 tenements, which was about the average served in the course of a day. An absolute loss, therefore, was entailed on these men by these extra duties. He proposed to add at the end of the new clause these words— All reasonable provision shall be made to defray the legitimate claims of the officials concerned in carrying out this Act, according to a scale to be approved by the Lord Lieutenant.

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

pointed out that the Amendment of his hon. Friend (Dr. Lyons) was merely a repetition of other words. Poor rate collectors were amongst those for whom remuneration was provided by the clause. He really thought the Amendment was unnecessary.

COLONEL NOLAN

reminded the Committee that if the poor rate collectors were remunerated as the hon. Member for Dublin (Dr. Lyons) desired, all the money allowed for registration purposes would be paid to these men alone.

Question put, and negatived.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

New Clause:—

(Contribution to cost of registration in borough of Dublin.)

"The Commissioners of the townships of Pembroke and Blackrock shall repay to the Treasurer of the Corporation of Dublin so much of the expense incurred by the Corporation in carrying the Parliamentary Registration Acts into effect, in any year, as is properly chargeable to those townships respectively, having regard to the number of electors registered in that year for the borough of Dublin in respect of qualifying premises situated in such townships respectively.

"Such payments shall be made by the Commissioners of the said townships out of the rates applicable by them respectively for the general purposes of the township.

"In case any dispute arises as to the amount properly chargeable to either township in any year, it shall be referred to the arbitration of the Local Government Board for Ireland, who may inquire into the matter, and may make an award which shall be binding upon the Corporation of Dublin, and upon the Commissioners of such township,"—(Mr. Campbell-Bannerman,)

—brought up, and read the first time.

Question, "That the Clause be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, considered.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

And now, in accordance with what I stated before, I would ask the House to give its consent to the third reading of the Bill. I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything in support of the proposal.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Mr. Campbell-Bannerman.)

MR. SEXTON

I make no objection to the third reading; but I emphatically repeat, so that there can be no mistake about it, that it is understood there will be a note appended in "another place" to include all the provisions embraced by Clause 28 of the English Bill.

MR. WARTON

said, that if the hon. and learned Solicitor General for Ireland would look at the bottom of page 10, he would find that the Clerks of the Peace would have to carry out the most difficult sections of the Representation of the People Act. These officials would actually be required to go into questions of title, and to find out whether property had been derived from descent, succession, marriage, marriage settlement, and so on. It was true these qualifications were contained in the Act; but he contended that if there were any grounds of objection, and if a vote were objected to, it would be impossible to prove the qualification without requiring the Clerks of the Peace to go into these matters of title. There would not be time for them to do it; only such persons as election agents could undertake such work. He pointed this out in the interests of the Bill, and of its proper working; and he should like some of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, who objected to his statement, to have to perform the multifarious duties which the Clerks of the Peace had to discharge, and then to have added to those duties the duty of finding out whether a person got his title to the property, giving him a qualification by descent, succession, marriage, or marriage settlement. He should like to know what they would think of the addition? He hoped that in "another place" this objectionable feature of the Bill would be removed. Generally speaking, the directions given to the Clerks of the Peace in the Bill were far too full, and dealt far too much with questions of law. These officials ought to have their duties laid down as simply as possible. He had felt it his duty to say these few words; and now, having said them, he felt content.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill passed.