HC Deb 08 May 1885 vol 298 cc33-7

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to the Bill [29th April], on Consideration, as amended.

And which Amendment was, In page 31, column 2, line 43, after the words "Lime Street Ward," to insert the words "excepting that portion bounded by a line drawn from Moss Street through London Road and William Brown Street down to the junction between Byrom Street and Old Haymarket."—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)

Question again proposed, "That those words he there inserted."

Debate resumed.


said, the Amendment would serve to equalize the population and to give representation to a considerable minority. It was said that an Irish Catholic would be put forward for this division as it at present stood; but a man might be Irish and Catholic without representing the political views of the Irish people in that division. He had heard that the man to be put forward by the Liberal Party was an undertaker. They would prefer a man belonging to some other position in life. He contended that unless this ward was limited as suggested in the Amendment the labouring class voters would be swamped by the votes of wholesale.


said, he hoped the Government would not regard the discussion as closed. Very great interest was taken in the matter, not only by the Irish Members but by the Irish people in England, whom the Irish Members in a certain sense represented. He thought the House would admit that they were justified in making this change for the better representation of the Irish in England, when the alteration did not in any sense violate those principles which had been laid down for the guidance of the Commissioners. Whatever proposals in this direction might be accepted, the result would be that the Irish population in England and Scotland would obtain but a scant representation in that House.


observed that under the Bill the 2,000,000 of Irishmen in England would only be able to return one Member to that House, while the few Protestants in Ireland would be able to return 25 Members. He should support the Amendment, because it would do something towards giving some of the Irish residents in England representation.


said, the Members for Liverpool were the only opponents of the Amendment, and surely their opposition did not constitute a dissent which ought to govern the intelligence and will of the right hon. Baronet in charge of the Bill. The question was whether the Amendment did or did not improve the Commissioners' scheme. He maintained that it improved the scheme, for it brought together populations of similar pursuits. In Ireland the Government had taken 1,000,000 of people, and in all debates and discussions held them apart as people of a certain creed or of certain opinions, sometimes as Protestants and more times as Loyalists, and to this 1,000,000 of people 25 to 30 Members had been given. To the 2,000,000 of Irish in England, who were far more distinct from the rest of the population than that 1,000,000 in Ireland, only about one Member would be given for one of the divisions of London. He could well understand that neither the Liberals nor the Tories were willing to enable the Irish population in England to return Members to that House, because they could never calculate upon which way such Members would vote.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 32; Noes 224: Majority 192.—(Div. List, No. 160.)

Other Amendments made.

Amendment proposed, In page 37, after line 9, to insert the words,— Southwark. Three Members. One Member for each Division. Names and Contents of Divisions, No. 1.—The West Division. The St. Saviour's District, and No. 1 St. Michael's and No. 2 St. Paul's Wards of the parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark. No. 2.—The East Division. The St. Olave's District. The parish of Rotherhithe, and No. 4 Ward of the parish of Bermondsey. No. 3.—The Bermondsey Division. No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3 Wards of Bermondsey parish. No. 3 St. George's Ward of the parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark,"—(Sir Charles W. Dilke.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


who had an alternative scheme, objected to the proposed division on the ground of the inequality of population between the several divisions. Bermondsey would have upwards of 84,000, whereas the two other divisions would only have between 67,000 and 69,000. This was a departure from the principle on which the Bill was based. He would not, however, press his Amendment.

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, In line 1, column 2, by leaving out the word "East," and inserting the word "Rotherhithe,"—(Mr. Edward Clarke,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the word 'East' stand part of the said proposed Amendment," put, and negatived.

The word "Rotherhithe" inserted.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.


proposed, in page 37, at the end, to insert an Amendment which he said was received with general favour in the Tower Hamlets. He thought that in the case of boroughs it was better to have local names taken from places already known rather than from points of the compass, and the names he now proposed were well-known in East London, while some of them also possessed literary or historical interest.

Amendment proposed, In Schedule 6, page 37, at end, insert,—Tower Hamlets. Seven Members. One Member for each Division. Names and Contents of Divisions. No. 1.—The Whitechapel Division. The Whitechapel District. No. 2.—The St. George Division. The parish of St. George-in-the-East and the parish of Wapping. No. 3.—The Limehouse Division. The Limehouse District, except the parish of Wapping. No. 4.—The Mile End Division. North Ward and East Ward of the Hamlet of Mile End Old Town. No. 5.—The Stepney Division. Centre Ward, West Ward, and South Ward of the Hamlet of Mile End Old Town. No. 6.—The Bow and Bromley Division. The parish of St. Mary Stratford-le-Bow, and The parish of Bromley St. Leonard, except so much as is comprised in Division No. 7, as herein described. No. 7.—The Poplar Division. The parish of Poplar, and so much of the parish of Bromley St. Leonard as lies to the east and south of a line drawn from the boundary of the parish of All Saints, Poplar, along the centre of the present North London Railway to a point opposite the centre of Bright Street; thence eastward, along the centres of Bright Street and Dewberry Street, to Brunswick Road; thence northward, along the centre of Brunswick Road, to the centre of Lochnager Street; and thence, along the centre of Lochnager Street and the continuation of the centre line of that street, to the parish boundary in Bow Creek."—(Mr. Bryce.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

On the Motion of Sir CHARLES "W. DILKE, the following Amendment was agreed to:— In Schedule 6, page 38, after line 17, insert,—Westminster. Three Members. One Member for each Division. Names and Contents of Divisions. No. 1.—The Hanover Square Division. The parish of St. George, Hanover Square. No. 2.—The Abbey Division. The parishes of St. Margaret and St. John the Evangelist, Westminster, and The Close of the Collegiate Church of St. Peter. No. 3.—The Strand Division. The Strand District, except the Liberty of the Rolls. The parish of St. Martin in the Fields, and The parish of St. James, Westminster.


said, that following the course adopted in some English and Scotch cities, he proposed to call the divisions of Dublin City after the his- toric sites or buildings in those divisions. The Commissioners suggested that they should be called South-West, North-West, &c, but those names conveyed no definite idea, and it should also be remembered that the divisions of Dublin County were named after the points of the compass. He now proposed that "North-West Dublin" should be called "College Green Division," "North-East Dublin," "Dublin Harbour Division," "South-East Dublin," Donny-brook Division," and "South-West Dublin," "St. Patrick's Division.

Amendment proposed, in page 42, line 4, leave out "North West Dublin," and insert "College Green;" in page 42, line 12, leave out "North East Dublin," and insert "Dublin Harbour;" in page 42, line 26, leave out "South East Dublin," and insert "Donnybrook;" in page 42, line 37, leave out "South West Dublin," and insert "St. Patrick's."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule," put, and negatived.

Amendments agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.