§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clause 1 (Short title); and Clause 2 (Definition), severally agreed to.
§ Clause 3 (Power of Her Majesty in Council to prescribe forms).
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDON, in moving, as an Amendment, in page 1, line 12, to leave out "including," and insert "excluding," said, he proposed the Amendment for the purpose of keeping in the hands of hon. Members the alteration of an Act of Parliament which was very important to Scotland. The clause proposed to enable the form of the Valuation Roll to be altered by an Order of the Queen in Council, instead of its being brought to the House of Commons and altered after consultation with the Scotch Members. It was quite possible that English and Irish Members did not know that the Valuation Roll was the most important document the Scotch people had. It was formed 32 years ago as the basis of all rating in Scotland, and it had been of the greatest value since. In Scotland they could not get on without it; and the English and Irish people would be very well satisfied if they adopted the same system. But that, however, was another matter. The Order of the Queen in Council was a very high sounding term; but, in point of fact, it really amounted to the Lord Advocate and his clerks. This was purely a Scotch business; and he would show the way in which this very Bill had been brought before the House, as an instance of how easily alterations might be made without any consultation with the Members from Scotland. This Bill was printed and delivered to hon. Members between 8 and 9 o'clock last Wednesday, and at 1 o'clock on the same day it was read a second time. He believed that not more than one or two Members from Scotland then knew that the Bill was in existence. He asked several Scotch Mem- 1422 bers, and only one of them told him that he had noticed that the Bill had been delivered that morning. He believed that the rapidity with which the Bill was read a second time was unprecedented in the annals of Parliament. There was no record of a Bill being read a second time the day it was delivered to Members. He mentioned that as an instance of how easily the Valuation Roll might be altered without the Scotch Representatives knowing any thing about it. The alteration that was proposed in this case was the adoption for the counties of a form of roll now used in boroughs. He would deal with that more in detail when they reached the Schedules. The county Members in the counties in Scotland had no organization by which they could bring to the notice of the Lord Advocate either their objections to the proposed change, or their wishes with regard to it. In that respect they were in a very different position to the burghs of Scotland, which had what was called the Convention of Burghs — an. organization for the purpose of looking after the interests of the burghs—having its head-quarters and offices in Edinburgh, and for its President very often the Lord Provost of that city. They had, therefore, means of access to the Lord Advocate and other officials in Edinburgh for the furthering of their wishes. He did not say that the interests of the burghs and counties were antagonistic; but his point was that they were not identical. Their wants were very different, and what was suitable for one might not be suitable for the other. It would be very easy for the officials of the Government to make changes which might have a political bias, and which might affect the voting of either burghs or counties in a very important manner, and, therefore, he thought hon. Members of that House ought to retain what they had had for 30 years—namely, the privilege of altering the law. He, therefore, proposed just merely to strike out of Clauses 3 to 4 so much as enabled them to alter the Valuation Roll of counties without coming to that House. He hoped hon. Members would see that it was proposed purely to keep in their hands that power which they had now, and not for any purpose of obstruction or hostility to the measure of the Lord Advocate. He begged to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice,
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 1, line 12, to leave out the word "including" for the purpose of inserting the word"excluding,"—(Sir Alexander Gordon,)
—instead thereof.
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'including' stand part of the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman, as he understood him, both from his Amendment on the Paper and from his speech, did not object to the Queen in Council being vested with the power of prescribing forms for the execution of this Act generally, but merely objected to that power being extended to the Valuation Boll. [Sir ALEXANDER GORDON: Yes; that is so.] In that case, he could assure the Committee that the only object with which this provision had been introduced was for the sake of convenience. They had now had a good many years experience of the Valuation Boll. It had been very frequently altered by Act of Parliament; and he believed that the counties had by no means adhered to the particular form which had been prescribed from time to time, so that there were in the various counties considerable variations. His hon. and gallant Friend had spoken of the want of facility for communication. He could assure the hon. Member that the reason why the Bill was somewhat late in being introduced was because they had been in communication with the assessors of the leading counties with the view of ascertaining what was the prevalent opinion as to the most convenient form and method of accomplishing the object they had in view—namely, simplicity and clearness in this Boll. It was found, from time to time, that some of the entries were needless, and that others required to be introduced Instead of making it essential to come back to Parliament for authority to get this done, they had thought it would be convenient to propose a simpler method of making such alteration as might be thought necessary from time to time. He conceived that that would be in accordance with the prevalent opinion; but he need scarcely say that if there was an idea on the part of Scotch Members that this should be made the subject of legislation, he would have no objection. A mere alteration of the 1424 form or the style was hardly worth— he was going to say occupying the time of the House, but he would not say that. He regarded the Valuation Boll as important; but it was not quite the charter of their liberties, as the hon. and gallant Member would seem to imply. He should like to know what the prevalent opinion on the subject was?
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate had spoken of the Valuation Boll having been altered several times. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, he thought, would find himself mistaken with regard to that. It had only been altered once.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, he had here two Acts of Parliament— namely, the Act of 1854, and the subsequent Act of the 24 & 25 Vict.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, the Valuation Boll was altered with regard to burghs by the Burghs Reform Act, and in regard to counties by the County Voters Act of 1861.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, that was what he was speaking of. The Act of 1861, no doubt, had altered it. It had made it optional for the period to be one or five years, as the Commissioners of Supply thought proper. It was for the purpose of assimilating the Roll; but there was no object to be gained by assimilating the Boll of the counties and the burghs. The two were wholly different, and nothing would be gained by having the two forms amalgamated. Therefore, he hoped his Amendment would be acceded to.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, that he had understood the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate to invite an expression of opinion as to the propriety of the proposals in the Bill. Well, he (Sir Herbert Maxwell) hardly concurred in the proposals in the Bill. He thought it would be distinctly to the advantage of those who had to deal with the working of the Act in the counties and burghs that there should be a certain elasticity given which could not be obtained by the complicated machinery of an Act of Parliament. It might seem a trivial point, and a somewhat unimportant point, which had been raised by his hon. and gallant Friend 1425 (Sir Alexander Gordon); but he could assure the Committee that there was a great deal of expense, unavoidable expense, involved in this question. It was the practice in the counties to adopt a most cumbersome and expensive form of printing the register of voters. He held in his hand a sheet of the register of voters for his own county, and he thought hon. Members, if they would look at it, would agree that it was a most inconvenient form. In his own constituency there were not more than 1,700 voters, and, absurd as it might seem, the register of these voters—the papers on which these 1,700 names were printed—weighed no less than 1½ lbs.; and he left it to the Committee to consider what would be the weight of records containing the names of, perhaps, 25,000 or 30,000 voters. He thought the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate deserved the thanks of the Committee for having referred this matter to the Privy Council; for, no doubt, the recommendations would reach that Body more perfectly and more readily than they would in the form of an Act of Parliament brought before this House.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ On the Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following Amendments made:—In page 1, line 24, after "1861," insert "and section sixteen of 'The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act;'" and in line 27. leave out "section four of the said Act," and insert "the last-mentioned section."
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 4 (Assessor may call for a list of inhabitant occupiers).
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, the first Amendment on the Paper in his name was as follows: — In page 2, line 4, after "every," insert "occupier or others." He did not, however propose to move it. He desired to accomplish the same thing by a slightly different method—namely, by moving to insert, in page 2, line 5, after the words "in respect of," the words "the occupation of." It had been pointed out that the clause, as it stood, did not define with sufficient clearness what the rating was to be. In Scotland, differing from the usual English practice, there 1426 was a rating both on the proprietor and the tenant, and under the clause, as it stood, there would be laid on the proprietor, however large his property, an obligation to send in a Return specifying all the names of the servants that even the tenants had on his property; and if the Committee accepted the proposal, he would have to specify also the time at which the servants entered his service. It would not be reasonable to ask that of the proprietor if he was not in the occupancy, because he might not have the means of knowing the facts; and accordingly the words he (the Lord Advocate) proposed to insert would make the clause run—"Every person rated, or liable to be rated, in respect of the occupation of lands." If he were the proprietor in occupation, then he would have to make the Return, and if he were the tenant in occupation he would have to do it. It was only the occupier who knew the service men on his property.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 2, line 5, after the words "in respect of," insert "occupation of."—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§
On the Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following Amendments made:—In page 2, line 6, after "dwelling-house," insert "or on some agent of such person concerned in the management of such lands and heritages;" line 7, leave out "himself," and insert "such person;" line 9, after "dwelling-house," insert "and the month and year in which they began to occupy such dwelling-house;" line 10, leave out "he," and insert "any such person or agent;" and in line 12, leave out from "conviction," to end of Clause, and insert—
To the same penalty as is enacted in similar cases by section seven of the Act passed in the Session of the seventeenth and eighteenth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter ninety-one.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 5 (Special provision as to voters in 1885), agreed to.
§ Clause 6 (Dwelling-house to be entered in valuation roll).
§ Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 21, to leave out "separately."—(The Lord Advocate.)
1427§ Question proposed, "That the word 'separately' stand part of the Clause."
§ MR. A. E. D. ELLIOTsaid, he wished to know the meaning of the Amendment.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, it had been suggested that the use of the word "separately" was a direction which led the assessors, or some of them, in making up the lists, practically to make double entries. They might feel it their duty to enter a name a second time in connection with the houses of servants. A criticism had been made upon that by those familiar with the working of the matter.
§ MR. A. R. D. ELLIOTsaid, he thought it desirable that the different houses attached to a farm should be entered separately.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, there was such a specification as would show that there was a different place inhabited by a different person. He had thought it safer to have the word "separately" in. They had been told that it would lead to double entry, and without it the section would be quite sufficient in itself.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONthought that each individual house should have a separate number on the Roll. Every house which carried a vote with it should have a separate number on the Roll.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, it should be individualized, whether it was numbered or not.
§ MR. R. P. BRUCEsaid, he thought the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate should consider the matter before Report. Take the case of a large farm; it might have four or five houses on it, the inhabitants of which would possess votes. There would be a list of four or five names in another column of the Roll, and nothing in the Roll to show where the houses were, or by whom they were occupied. That point he thought worthy of consideration. Should not the word "cottage," or whatever it might be, be put against each name?
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONI hope the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate will consider that matter.
§ MR. ORR-EWINGthought each house should be clearly specified.
§ MR. BUCHANANasked whether there would be a separate entry?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, that specifying a dwelling-house meant entering that dwelling-house individually. There might be a farmhouse, then so many cottages, and so on.
§ Question put, and negatived; word left out accordingly.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 7 (Register in divided parishes); Clause 8 (Register in parliamentary burghs merged in counties); Clause 9 (Advertisement of new polling places in counties, 16 & 17 Vict. c. 28); and Clause 10 (Registration where counties are divided), severally agreed to.
§ Clause 11 (Assessor not to be collector of poor rates or factor).
§ MR. WILLIAMSONsaid, he did not know what the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate expected to gain by the clause. No doubt it was a desirable thing that the assessor of a burgh—it might be a small one—should not be allowed to be a factor or land agent within that small burgh; but there was no reason why he should be prevented from engaging as factor or land agent in farm operations in a district 10 or 12 miles away. He was sure the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate did not wish to prevent that, although that was the result of his clause. He (Mr. Williamson) proposed to remedy it in either one or two ways—either to insert, after the word "assessor," in line 11, the words "in the county or division of the county"—that was to say, to exclude the operation of the clause from an outside district. If that were not acceptable, he would suggest, as an alternative proposal, to put at the end of the clause the words "in the county district or burgh in which he may be assessor." He would move the first of the two alternative Amendments, but would leave the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate to make his choice between the two.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 3, line 11, after the word "assessor," insert "in the county or division of the county."—(Mr. Williamson.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
1429§ MR. DALRYMPLEsaid, he agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Williamson). He quite understood the reason of this clause. It might be advantageous to have the restriction in some cases; but there were instances in which burgh solicitors were to a very small extent land factors, and these gentlemen it would be un-unnecessary to exclude from the office of accessor. He believed the language of the clause was unnecessarily wide, and was of opinion that the case the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate had in view, and which the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had also borne in mind, would be met by making the provision apply to counties only. He thought that burgh factors should be excluded from the clause. They were in no sense factors in the sense in which he understood those referred to in the Bill to be.
DR. CAMERONsaid, he hoped that the second alternative proposed by the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Andrews (Mr. Williamson) would be accepted. To include small burghs in the operation of this Bill would be to put a stop to some flagrant cases of pluralism which existed in small burghs, and there could be no particular hardship in the proposal. He quite agreed that there was no reason why an assessor in a burgh or county should be prevented from doing what he liked in any district beyond his official jurisdiction; but that brought in the second alternative. But if this was to be inserted in the clause, and he thought it was desirable that it should, he protested against burghs being taken out.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLcould not understand the object of the provision in the Bill which they were discussing. If gentlemen acting as factors in many districts were excluded by their office from acting as assessors, they would lose the services of those who were really the most capable men in the county for discharging the duties of assessors. Of course, in large towns there was plenty of choice; but he would ask the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate to remember that in sparsely populated districts and rural places the most capable business men, and the best men, were selected as factors and land agents, and that these would be the best qualified for dis- 1430 charging the duties of assessors. He must protest against the idea, which seemed to be accepted in some quarters, that because a man was employed in a certain capacity to act between a landlord and tenant, he utterly and entirely lost the capacity for acting impartially in any public office. He entirely protested against any such idea as that, and trusted the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate would, if he did not abandon this Amendment, at all events show some better reason why the Committee should support it than it bore on the face of it.
§ GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he supported the view of the hon. Baronet (Sir Herbert Maxwell). He had an Amendment on the Paper to leave out all the words after the word "rates" to the end of the clause. He failed to understand why burgh assessors should be placed in a better position than county assessors, as his hon. Friend the Member for Wigtonshire had just stated. Some of the factors who acted as county assessors were the very best men in the county. He had in view the cases of several assessors in several towns who had been acting as factors for various properties for 25 years past. He had never heard any complaint against these gentlemen; and he thought that to prevent a choice being made from amongst the factors and land agents was to deprive the public of the services of a very valuable class of men. The result of the exclusion proposed would be that they would be apt to get an inferior class of men, because the superior class would have to chose between giving up their factorships or relinquishing the assessorships. He thought in the case of men who had acted for 25 years without a whisper of complaint against them, it was a hard thing to put before them the alternative of giving up either their factorships or their assessorships. He had not heard a single argument in favour of the plan the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate proposed; and he should like to hear from the right hon. and learned Gentleman what he had to say in favour of depriving this worthy class of men of their assessor ships or their factorships, as the case might be?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he thought he could explain in a few words the reason why this clause was introduced. It had been 1431 introduced in consequence of representations received from a variety of quarters to the effect that the combination of the offices of assessors and factors had resulted in a good deal of complaint. Pluralism was objected to as being disadvantageous in the holder of a public office, but it was not merely to prevent that that the clause had been introduced. Legislation had no concern with that by itself, unless it was shown that there was some possible conflict between the discharge of a public duty and a private one. What were the duties of an assessor and his powers? An assessor had to go about and collect all kinds of information regarding hereditable property. He had to go about the lands in his district, whether county or burgh. He asked all kinds of questions, and made all kinds of notes, and entered what he thought the value on the Valuation Roll, and he very often had a considerable amount of judgment to bring to bear. Take, for instance, the case of houses in the town or in the county which were not let, but in the occupancy of the owner. The assessor had. to form an opinion as to what value he would put upon them. On the other hand, observe what an assessor's duties as factor were. One of his duties as factor was, of course, to manage in the interest of his employer, and to avoid any taxation that could be avoided. He should be very sorry to make any charge against the factors; but it was quite plain that they might be tempted to take a more favourable—that is, for the purposes of taxation, a lower—view of the valuation of property they managed than they would if the same property were managed by someone else. Accordingly, it was thought there was a possibility of a conflict of public and private duty to which no one should be subjected. Certainly there were parts of the country in which the feeling existed—whether rightly or wrongly—that it was unfortunate that there should be persons in such a position. He put it as a matter of general principle which he thought the Committee would accept. If what he had said were true of the country, he should imagine it was even more true of the towns. It had been represented to the Government that there were in towns gentlemen holding the office of house factors and also of assessors, and it had been pointed out that it was unfair they 1432 should have the power of valuing houses they managed and the houses they did not manage. The same considerations, therefore, came into play in towns as in counties. Assessors who acted as house factors would get to know the affairs of their neighbours, and it might be of their rivals in trade. They might obtain particulars with regard to other houses that it was not desirable they should acquire. In short, this was not a position in which a man should be placed. Such was the ground on which this provision with regard to factors had been introduced. He might point out that no objection had been made to the collectors of poor rates being disqualified from acting as assessors. The reason of their disqualification was obvious. Poor rate collectors also had certain duties to perform with respect to the preparation of the Register. But it appeared to him that the case against factors acting as assessors was even stronger than that against poor rate collectors. He should, however, be quite prepared, if the Committee thought tit, to accept the second Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Andrews Burghs (Mr. Williamson), because the possible conflict of duty would not arise except where the management was in the same area as that in which the second set of duties were to be performed. If his hon. Friend (Mr. Williamson) would for the words "for a county or division of a county" substitute the words "in the county or burgh," he (the Lord Advocate) would be prepared to accept the Amendment. But he was not disposed, for the reasons he had given, to drop the provision, unless there was a feeling in the Committee that it was not a right provision.
§ MR. ORR-EWINGsaid, he was very sorry the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate had thought it necessary to introduce this clause, because he (Mr. Orr-Ewing) thought that the clause was quite unnecessary. They had not been told the sources from which the Government had obtained the information upon which this clause was defended. It was a great pity that owing to secret communications, a clause should be inserted in an Act of Parliament which really endeavoured to cast a reflection upon a most respectable class of men. This clause would be 1433 found to be all the more unnecessary when it was borne in mind how the assessors were appointed. The Government assessors valued each district of Scotland, and the counties almost invariably appointed them their assessors—indeed, he was not aware of any county with which he was acquainted that did not accept the valuation of the county assessors. It must be a very small county that acted differently. It would save the counties a great deal of expense, and a clashing of valuation between the Government and county assessors, if the Government valuation were to be adopted. It would be much better for the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate to withdraw this clause altogether. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman would only give the matter a little thought, and throw aside the anonymous correspondence he had received, he must see the force of the arguments addressed to him.
§ MR. WILLIAMSONasked leave to withdraw his Amendment, seeing that the Lord Advocate was prepared to accept the alternative proposal.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 3, line 12, after "be," insert "a sheriff clerk or clerk of supply."—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. R. P. BRUCEsaid, he wished to point out that if these men were prevented from engaging in the work, it might be found necessary to employ men of an inferior class.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he would remind the Committee that sheriffs' officers had other public duties to perform.
§ MR. DALRYMPLEasked what sort of persons it was contemplated to employ in future as assessors? In many districts there was only a limited number of persons who could possibly be so employed; and if by this Bill they were to exclude such persons, who would have to be appointed in future? No one could make a living by being assessor only; and if an assessor was not to have any other means of obtaining a living, he (Mr. Dalrymple) failed to see who they could appoint to the office.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)thought a very convenient 1434 method would be to appoint the Government assessor. He believed that the Government assessor was employed in all the counties of Scotland except six.
§ Question put, and agreed to; words inserted accordingly.
DR. CAMERONproposed, in page 3, line 12, after "poor," to insert "or other public." It appeared to him that the same argument applied in the case of the one officer as in the case of the other.
§ Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 12, after "poor," to insert "or other public."—(Dr. Cameron.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he doubted whether it was wise to use such very general words. He did not exactly know what they covered. He thought the Committee ought to know whether any particular office was pointed at, and whether it was expected there would be any conflict of duty.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he did not know that the mere collecting of money raised a conflict, and he put it to his hon. Friend whether the words adopted did not cover every office that was necessary.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he was not satisfied with the explanations given by the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate, and as he believed, with his hon. Friend the Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. Orr-Ewing),that the proposal of the right hon. and learned Gentleman cast a slur on a deserving body of men, he begged to move the Amendment which stood in his name.
§ Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 13, to leave out all after "rates" to end of Clause.—(General Alexander.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he did not propose to repeat what he had already said on this matter; but he must point out that what was proposed did not cast a slur upon anybody—he should be very sorry if it 1435 did. Parliament had repeatedly declared by Acts that particular offices should not be held together. That did not cast a slur upon anybody; it merely affirmed that in the estimation of Parliament it would be better that certain offices should not be held jointly. The object was to prevent any possible conflict of duties.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, that an undoubted slur was cast upon the factors. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had said he had received anonymous communications.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, that so far as the Committee were concerned the communications were anonymous. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had received communications, he declined to say from whom; but he invited the Committee to be influenced by communications of this nature. He (Sir Herbert Maxwell) would be very surprised if the Committee of the House of Commons consented to pay any attention whatsoever to the communications in question. Why, they all knew that nobody could fill any public office in any rural town or large town without making enemies. It was very possible that an enemy of one of the factors had written to the right hon. and learned Gentleman; but the right hon. and learned Gentleman was not to suppose that the Committee would on any trivial grounds consent that a class of men should be discredited in the manner proposed. The right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke as if to be tempted was tantamount to being tempted. He spoke of the motives which would actuate these gentlemen, and he mentioned certain forms of temptation to which they would be exposed by the fact of holding a number of offices of course, men were exposed to temptation; but it was not the business of the House of Commons to build a hedge round every subject of Her Majesty so that they should not be tempted. The gentlemen in question could resist temptation, and therefore he cordially supported the Amendment of his hon. and gallant Friend (General Alexander).
§ MR. ORR-EWINGsaid, there were only six counties in Scotland which did not adopt the Government assessor. He would put it to the right hon. and learned 1436 Lord Advocate whether it would not be better to introduce a clause compelling these six counties to adopt the Government valuator as the county valuator? If that were done, the difficulty which the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his Friends foresaw, of having factors and Poor Law Inspectors acting as assessors, would be prevented. If this suggestion did not meet with approval, he hoped the Committee would reject the clause altogether.
DR. CAMERONhoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate would adhere to this part of his proposal. He did not see that any slur was cast upon any section of the community by what was proposed. There was a strong temptation to employ as factor a man who had power of fixing the assessment of properties. The liberal reforms which had taken place would work a very material change, especially in the Highland counties; and from the knowledge he (Dr. Cameron) possessed of the classes who were to be enfranchised, he could say that they would not regard with anything like confidence or satisfaction the holding of the office of assessor by the factors. Officials of this sort should be above suspicion; and when they were legislating on this subject, it was well that a change should be made if good reason were shown for making it. The hon. Baronet (Sir Herbert Maxwell) had spoken of anonymous communications. The right hon. and learned Lord Advocate did not mention anonymous communications, but spoke of having received communications from various quarters of the country. He (Dr. Cameron) had also received many communications on this subject.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate would accept the request of the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. Orr-Ewing). That hon. Gentleman had proposed a compromise which would be acceptable to all Parties. He (Mr. A. J. Balfour) agreed with the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate, that there was some advantage in having officials who were above suspicion; but he also agreed with his hon. Friend, that there was no more deserving class in all Scotland, a class more capable of doing their business than the factors. If it was true that this clause 1437 was likely to be interpreted as a slur on that deserving class, could not that be avoided without injury to the Public Service? Would it not be well for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to engage, between this and Report, to make it obligatory on all counties in Scotland to engage the Government assessors?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. A. BALFOUR)said, he thought it was possible it might be regarded as an interference with local self-government if the Government were to say—"We appoint certain gentlemen as assessors, and you must appoint them as your assessors." Besides, the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Orr-Ewing) did not cover the case of burghs, and he (the Lord Advocate) was not sure whether that was not a more important case than the other.
§ MR. ORR-EWINGsuggested that it should be arranged to include the burghs in the provision.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, that the only counties in which this was in question at all were the Highland counties, and it was just in those counties where there would be difficulty in finding any efficient official other than the Government official. He was certainly of opinion that it would be well if some compulsion were put on the counties in this matter.
§ GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment in order that a division might be taken upon the Question, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR) moved an Amendment, in page 3, line 13, after "factor," to insert "for heritable property."
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted" put, and agreed to.
§ MR. WILLIAMSONsaid, he would propose the Amendment accepted by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate—namely, at the end of line 13, to add "in the county or burgh for which he may be assessor."
§ Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 13, at end, to insert "in the county or burgh for which he may be assessor."
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
1438§ MR. BUCHANANasked whether it would not be necessary to insert the words "Parliamentary burgh?"
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he did not know whether that would be necessary; but he would consider the matter on Report, and also whether they should not insert the words "county or division of county."
§ Question put, and agreed to; words inserted accordingly.
DR. CAMERONproposed to insert, in line 13, at end—
And every person who is the partner of a person so employed shall, for the purpose of this section, he deemed himself to be so employed.His object in proposing this Amendment was to prevent an evasion of the meaning of the clause.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 3, line 13, at the end of the Clause, to insert the words "and every person who is the partner of a person so employed shall, for the purpose of this section, he deemed himself to be so employed."—(Dr. Cameron.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, the qualification was an individual qualification, and he did not think there was any fear of a clause being evaded in the way contemplated by the hon. Gentleman. If the clause were allowed to stand as at present, there would be no possibility of harm arising.
MR. DICK-PEDDIEsaid, he considered the Amendment was necessary, and therefore trusted the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate would see his way to accept it.
DR. CAMERONsaid, the clause might be necessary or not; but his belief was that if the clause was necessary, to make it effective they must put in words such as he proposed. Therefore, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman would not accept the Amendment, he should divide the Committee.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: — Ayes 31; Noes 76: Majority 45. — (Div. List, No. 148.)
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That Clause 11, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
1439§ The Committee divided: —Ayes 80; Noes 27: Majority 53.—(Div. List, No. 149.)
§ Clause 12 (Separate valuation of water, gas, and other companies to be made in police burghs having population over 5,000).
§ On the Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following Amendments made:—In page 3, line 14, after "twenty-three," insert "twenty-five and twenty-seven;" and in line 19, leave out from "Act" to end of Clause.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR), in moving the insertion of a new clause, after Clause 12, providing for the printing of the Valuation Bolls, giving the Commissioners of Supply of any county, or the magistrates of any burgh, duly assembled for such purpose, the power to enter into contracts for such printing, and declaring the expense of such printing to be part of the expense of mating up the Roll, and to be assessed for and levied accordingly, explained that under the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act of 1867 the power was given to the Commissioners of Supply to contract for the printing of the Roll only for one year at a time, and it was thought that it would be much cheaper to give the power to contract for a period not exceeding 10 years. The new clause, therefore, proposed that they should have power to make such contracts for 10 years.
§
New Clause:—
(Printing of Valuation Roll. 30 and 31 Vic. c. 80.)
It shall be lawful for the Commissioners of Supply of any county, or the magistrates of any burgh, to resolve at any meeting of their number, ordinary or special, duly called, and by a majority of those attending and voting, that the Valuation Roll of such county or burgh shall be printed for any period of years not exceeding ten, and it shall be lawful for such Commissioners or magistrates to enter into contracts for printing the same, and the expenses of such printing shall be deemed to be part of the expenses of making up such Roll, and shall be assessed for and valued accordingly: Provided always, That notice of the intention to move such resolution shall be inserted in the notice calling the meeting at which it is to be moved.
And section ten of 'The Valuation of Lands (Scotland) Amendment Act, 1867,' is hereby repealed,"—(The Lord Advocate,)
brought up, and read the first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ MR. A. R. D. ELLIOTsaid, he would move that Progress should now be reported. Many hon. Members had not been able as yet to look very carefully at these Amendments, some of which had been put upon the Paper for the first time that night. Another reason for postponement was that he and several other Scotch Members had sent off the Bill and the Amendments to their friends in Scotland for their consideration, and before going into the new clauses, which occupied a couple of pages of the Paper, he would like to know what his friends in Scotland thought of them. The only result of persevering with the Bill now would be that discussion would be raised upon it on the Report stage.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman be directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. A. R. D. Elliot.')
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, there was another reason for reporting Progress. The Prime Minister had announced at Question time that evening that he should have a statement to make next week with regard to the course he proposed to take in the English Bill in reference to the question of paying for the expenses of registration. It would be observed that these new clauses dealt with the question of the cost of registration. Perhaps the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate would tell the Committee what course the Government would take on this question in the present Bill?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, that was a matter for the judgment of the House. But if the Bill passed through Committee that night, it would be reprinted before the Report, and it would be more convenient to discuss the matter then. He did not propose to go into the general question now; but whatever might be decided in regard to it in connection with the English measure, the same principle would, of course, apply to the Bill for Scotland.
§ MR. A. R. D. ELLIOTsaid, he would, in that case, withdraw his Motion for reporting Progress. His only object was to prevent the Committee from going on in the dark.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThen, we understand that, whatever arrangement is come to in the English Bill on this point, a similar arrangement will be made for Scotland?
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR), in moving the insertion of a new clause providing for the registration of lodgers in the case of the joint occupation of lodgings where the interest of each lodger, not more than two in number, amounted to an annual sum of not less than £10, explained that the object of the clause was to give the same privilege to lodgers in Scotland as was enjoyed by lodgers in England under the Registration Act of 1878.
§
New Clause:—
(Joint occupation of lodgings.)
Where lodgings are jointly occupied by more than one lodger, and the clear yearly value of the lodgings if let unfurnished is of an amount which when divided by the number of the lodgers gives a sum of not less than ten pounds for each lodger, then each lodger, if otherwise qualified, and subject to the conditions of 'The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1868,' shall be entitled to be registered, and when registered to vote as a lodger, provided that not more than two persons, being such joint lodgers, shall be entitled to be registered in respect of such lodgings,"—(The Lord Advocate,)
—brought up, and read a first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ MR. HENDERSONsaid, he wished to know whether, in any case where there were more than two lodgers in joint occupation of the premises, the Revising Barrister would be permitted to make a selection among then?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR), in reply, said, that could not be done under the English law, and it would not be possible under the present Bill.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
1442§ THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR) moved the insertion of a new clause, providing that the declaration of a lodger annexed to his notice of claim should be prima facie evidence of his qualification.
§
New Clause: —
(Declaration of lodger to be prima facie evidence.)
In the case of a person claiming to vote as a lodger, the declaration annexed to his notice of claim shall for the purposes of revision be primâ facie evidence of his qualification,"— (The Lord Advocate,)
—brought up, and read a first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ MR. ORR-EWINGsaid, he wished to know what would be the effect of the clause?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, that here again the analogy of the English Act was followed. It had been said that a man ought not to be obliged to go and prove affirmatively that he was a lodger, and the object of the clause was simply to provide that the onus of objecting to him should be thrown upon the person who objected.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
§
On the Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following new Clauses were read a first and second time, and added to the Bill: —
(Remuneration of collectors of poor rates.)
For the duties imposed upon them by sections eighteen and nineteen of 'The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1868,' collectors of poor rates shall be entitled to remuneration at the rate of six shillings for every thousand names, and such remuneration shall be paid as part of the expenses of registration in counties and burghs respectively.
(Additional officers for registration in 1885.)
During the year one thousand eight hundred and eighty-five—
All expenses under this section shall be paid as part of the expenses of registration in counties and burghs respectively.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR) moved the insertion of a new clause dealing with the cases of the double entry of voters upon the lists.
§
New Clause:—
(Double entries of Voters.)
(1.) When the name of a person appears to be entered more than once as a voter on the lists of voters for the same county or burgh, the sheriff, when revising the lists, shall inquire whether such entries relate to the same person, and, on proof that such entries relate to the same person, shall retain one entry and strike out the others.
(2) The said person may select the entry to be retained by notice in writing delivered or Bent by post to the sheriff clerk at or before the opening of the first court at which the sheriff revises any of the lists in which any such entries appear, or by application made by such person or on his behalf at the first sitting of the court for the revision of such lists.
(3.) If no selection is so made the entry to be retained shall be determined as follows:—
(a.) In counties: —
(i.) If one of the entries is an entry on the list of voters as proprietor, and unobjected to, that entry shall be retained; and
(ii.) If none of the entries is on the list of voters as proprietor, and one of the entries is the place of residence of the voter, and unobjected to, the entry in respect of the place of residence shall be retained; and
(iii.) In any other case the entry which is first reached by the sheriff in revising the lists shall be retained:
(b.) In burghs:—
(i.) If one of the entries is the place of residence of the voter, the entry in respect of the place of residence shall be retained; and
(ii.) In any other case the entry which is first reached by the sheriff in revising the lists shall be retained:
And, if any such entry to be retained is objected to the sheriff shall not finally strike out any other entry until the objection to the entry to be retained has been determined by him in favour of the voter:
(4.) When a Parliamentary burgh is divided into divisions, and the name of a person is entered in the register of Parliamentary voters in more than one division, and one of these entries is his place of residence, he shall be entitled to vote only in that division in which he is registered as a voter in respect of his place of
1444
residence, and shall not vote in respect of any other entry,"—(The Lord Advocate.)
—brought up, and read a first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ MR. DALRYMPLEsaid, he was glad the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate proposed to reprint the Bill, because this clause was of a somewhat startling character in its arrangement and method. It not only contained four sub-sections, but one of these subsections was sub-divided into two; and of those two secondary sub-sections, one was again sub-divided into three parts, and the other into two. Altogether the clause was of a most complicated character, and it might surely be made more intelligible. He would Like to know what was meant by the word "entries," because it was difficult to ascertain whether they were men or things. In line 3 of the clause they Were clearly things; but in line 17 as clearly they were persons. He hoped this sort of criticism would not be considered hypercritical—it was very important that they should be clear in the wording of the Bill. He would also like to see the words "unobjected to" omitted. Clearly they were not English, and he did not know that they were Scotch. They formed an unfortunate expression for an Act of Parliament. As the Bill was to be reprinted, he hoped that attention would be given to these points.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he did not know whether the words "unobjected to" were Scotch; but he had no doubt whatever that they were English, because they were taken from the English Bill.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause verbally amended as amended agreed to, and added to the Bill.
§ Schedule.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDON moved, as an Amendment, the substitution of a Schedule in a different form from that contained in the Bill. Under the Act of 1854, two separate forms of Roll were established, one for counties, and the other for burghs. The one for counties had a column like the one he now proposed for the description of sub- 1445 ject; but the one for burghs was subdivided, and had a small space for streets. In counties the houses were not numbered, and therefore the place for numbers was of no use. For some reason unexplained, the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate now proposed to introduce one form both for counties and burghs. In 1861, under the County Voters Act for Scotland, the two original forms were reduced to one form, and the double columns for towns were discontinued, and one simple form was introduced for both counties and burghs. That had been in use ever since 1861, and he was not aware that any inconvenience had arisen from it. But the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate now proposed to reverse the arrangement—to have one form for counties and burghs; but to make the counties adopt the burgh form, by which there would be a complicated column with three divisions introducing a number. There ought to be a separate roll for counties, with one plain column, in which to place the entries. He had in his hand some of the forms, and there would be no difficulty in filling them up with one column. He did not attach much importance to the point; but, as it would simplify the procedure, he would move to leave out the words "and situation."
§ Amendment proposed, in column 2, to leave out the words "and situation."— (Sir Alexander Gordon.)
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, he must point out that it was most essential to have a clear specification. He apprehended that the Committee would think that the column, as it stood, was a proper column.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ SIR ALEXANDER. GORDONsaid, he had an Amendment to propose in order to carry out the 5th section of the Act of 1868, which was to the effect that any person holding property of the value of £5, after deducting feu duty, should be entitled to vote. That section, not having been repealed, it was important to have the feu duty placed on the Valuation Boll, in order that it might be deducted from the total value, and that it might be seen at once whether the person was entitled to vote. If that was not done, there would be a great inducement to assessors making 1446 up the Boll to take the value of property as it stood, without deducting the feu duty. It was also very important that there should be a public record of all feuars. Feuars were liable to assessment in cases where tenants were not so liable; therefore it was most desirable to have on the Valuation Boll a statement of those who were feuars, and those who were tenants. That was the custom with regard to the last Valuation Boll, and it had been found to be very useful. He therefore proposed that the right hon. Gentleman should agree to take out the first money column of the Government Schedule, because that column was of no value whatever. His proposal was that they should have the net result put in the column of the yearly rent or value.
§ Amendment proposed, in column 7, to leave out the words "yearly rent or value," in order to insert the words "feu duty and ground annual,"—(sir Alexander Gordon,) —instead thereof.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONGround rent.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)said, the Schedule had been prepared after very careful consideration with assessors in the leading counties of Scotland. There seemed to have been something like a consensus that it was not necessary to insert the feu duty; but he found that there had since been a good deal of representation in another sense. He was therefore willing to accept the Amendment of his hon. and gallant Friend.
§ Amendment agreed to; words substituted accordingly.
§ Amendment proposed, to leave out the column headed "Observations."—(Sir Alexander Gordon.)
§ Amendment agreed to; column left out accordingly.
§ Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 151.]