HC Deb 03 March 1885 vol 294 cc1900-2
MR. STUART-WORTLEY

asked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether it is true that the Russians have advanced to Penjden and Zulfikar, both of which are on Afghan territory; and, if so, what steps Her Majesty's Government propose to take?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

(who replied) said: Russian troops have advanced to Sari Yazi, and Colonel Alikhanoff has stationed a post of Yulatan Turcomans at Pulikhisti, a few miles north of Penjdeh. Russian troops have also occupied the Zulfikar Pass. Representations are being made to the Russian Government, earnestly urging them to give stringent orders to their military commanders to refrain from any further forward movement which would bring about a collision between the Afghan and Russian outposts. The Russian Government, in reply to a remonstrance from Her Majesty's Government, declined on the 24th ultimo to withdraw from their advanced posts at Sari Yazi and the Zulfikar Pass, but gave assurances that their officers had been ordered carefully to avoid conflicts with the Afghans, and that complica- tions were only to be feared in the event of the Afghans attacking the Russian posts. Sir Peter Lumsden, who has exerted himself to prevent any conflict, has advised the Afghans to maintain themselves in the positions now occupied by them. This advice has been approved; and he has been instructed to urge them at the same time not to advance beyond their present positions.

BARON HENRY DE WORMS

Can the noble Lord say how many miles the Russian and Afghan outposts are apart?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

At Pul-i-khisti they are close to one another. Pul-i-khisti is about six miles from Penjdeh.

MR. STUART-WORTLEY

Are the places which the noble Lord has named, to which the Russian advance has penetrated, strictly within Afghan territory?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I must remind the House, almost in the terms of the answer given by my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for India the other day, that the Commission of Sir Peter Lumsden, who, so far as this country is concerned, is the principal member, was appointed for the purpose of ascertaining what the Afghan boundary in this district is. But no doubt, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, Zulfikar and Penjdeh are within Afghan territory.

MR. R. H. PAGET

Is the noble Lord able to inform us how far the nearest place mentioned by him is from Herat?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

From the Zulfikar Pass it is about 90 miles to Herat; and from Penjdeh a little over 100 miles. These distances are as the crow flies, and are, of course, approximate.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

Is it the case that the Russians have advanced to Pul-i-khisti within the last few days?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I meant to imply in my answer that this advance had recently taken place.

MR. STUART-WORTLEY

Are these points to which the Russians have advanced points the Sovereignty over which is in dispute, and has to be ascertained by the Boundary Commission?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I do not desire to go beyond the answer which I gave just now, when I said that the Commission had been appointed to ascertain where the Afghan boundary is as between Afghanistan and the Russians. Naturally the existence of the Commission implies a certain amount of uncertainty with regard to the question. The districts referred to are, as stated by my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for India, indicated in different ways on different maps.

MR. BOURKE

Can the noble Lord inform the House whether or not the Russian Government have been told that Her Majesty's Government have approved of the advice given by Sir Peter Lumsden to the Afghans to maintain their present position by force?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I think it would be reasonable that the right hon. Gentleman should give Notice of that Question.

BARON HENRY DE WORMS

asked whether it was to be understood, from the answer which the noble Lord had given, that the Russians had advanced 50 miles since Monday the 23rd of February, in the direction of Herat?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

said, he would naturally like to refer to maps and documents before answering a Question of detail on what was really a matter of geography.

BARON HENRY DE WORMS

remarked that, from the answers of the noble Lord, it was evident that the Russians must have advanced 50 miles.

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I have answered the Question on the Paper. Perhaps the hon. Member will give Notice of the further Question.

BARON HENRY DE WORMS

said, that he would put down the Question for a future day.