HC Deb 27 July 1885 vol 300 cc196-207

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR SEXTON

said, that, in the absence of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy), he begged to move the following new clause:—

(Borough scale to apply to counties in Ireland.) In Ireland the scale applicable to a borough in the Third Schedule of the above Act shall apply also to counties, and the scale applicable to a 'county or district of a contributory borough 'shall not extend to Ireland.

Clause (Borough scale to apply to counties in Ireland,)—(Mr. Sexton,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be read a second time."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he thought that, under the circumstances of the case, it would not be reasonable to apply this to Ireland. He should be bound to oppose it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 8; Noes 55: Majority 47.—(Div. List, No. 250.)

MR. SEXTON

said, he now begged to move the following clause standing on the Paper in the name of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell):— (Scale for counties and boroughs in Ireland.) In Ireland the following scale, which shall apply both in counties and boroughs, shall be substituted from and after the end of this present Parliament for the scale allowed by the Third Schedule of the above Act:— Where the Registered Electors do not exceed 4,000, £100; Where the Registered Electors exceed 4,000, but do not exceed 7,000, £200; Where the Registered Electors exceed 7,000, but do not exceed 10,000, £250; Where the Registered Electors exceed 10,000, but do not exceed 15,000, £300; Where the Registered Electors exceed £15,000, £400. The hon. Member for the City of Cork had, to his (Mr. Sexton's) personal knowledge, given very close attention to this subject. The Government could hardly claim that they had given closer attention to it; and he, therefore, hoped they would accept it.

Clause (Scale for counties and boroughs in Ireland,)—(Mr. Sexton,)—brought up, and road the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a second time."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he could not accept the clause.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 7; Noes 52: Majority 45.—(Div. List, No. 251.)

MR. WARTON,

in proposing after Clause 2 to insert the following clause:— Notwithstanding the scale of charges laid down in the First Schedule of the Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875, it shall be lawful in any county or borough constituency where the poll is kept open to an hour later than 4 p.m. for the Returning Officer to charge four guineas for each presiding officer and thirty shillings for each clerk at a polling station, said, he earnestly hoped the Government would consider this clause, because he had the deepest sense of its necessity. He would endeavour to make his argument in support of it at once as clear and as brief as he could. They all knew that under Clauses 8 to 11 of the Corrupt Practices Act any candidate who made an illegal payment was liable to lose his election, and be suspended for a long time from the privilege of serving in Parliament. They knew that an addition was made to the second part of the 1st Schedule—passed by a narrow majority during the dinner hour—in reference to Returning Officers' expenses. Formerly, candidates were allowed to pay the Returning Officer's charges; but now, if they paid more than the Returning Officers had a right to demand, they were chargeable with illegal pay- ment. He (Mr. Warton) contended that as under the Hours of Polling Act the time during which the poll remained open had been extended from 8 to 12 hours, Returning Officers might feel themselves justified in their own consciences in charging more than they were legally entitled to. The remuneration for the Returning Officer under the old system was three guineas, and that amount had not been changed; but it seemed to him (Mr. Warton) that if three guineas was sufficient for eight hours' work, four guineas would not be too large a payment for 12 hours' work in the case of each Returning Officer, and that if £1 1s. had been sufficient for each polling clerk under the old state of things 30s. was not too much under the new. They must all have known cases where it was difficult for the scale of allowance to Returning Officers to be strictly adhered to. He was not in favour of increasing election expenses, though, taking a rough and hasty view of the matter, his Amendment would seem to be an attempt to do so. In a certain sense it would increase them, because four guineas and 30s. were more than three guineas and one guinea; but he contended that these increases were expedient injustice to the Returning Officers and clerks, and, of course, indirectly to the candidates, whose desire it would be to have sufficiently-paid and, consequently, efficient election officers appointed. This was not a Party question. It was one in which they were all personally interested. He maintained that, as the Returning Officers and clerks would have longer hours to serve, the difficulty of returning to their homes from outlying districts would be greatly increased, and that in cases where this led to larger expenditure on the part of these officials the candidates might be placed in the difficult position of being asked to defray that increased expenditure and to allow more than was permitted by the Corrupt Practices Act. It would be hard for the candidates to be obliged to refuse such appeals and to require the officials to pay the increased expenditure out of their own pockets.

New Clause:—

(Increase of Returning Officers' charges in certain cases.)

"Notwithstanding the scale of charges laid down in the First Schedule of ' The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875,' it shall be lawful in any county or borough constituency where the poll is kept open to an hour later than 4 p.m. for the Returning Officer to charge four guineas for each presiding officer and thirty shillings for each clerk at a polling station,"—(Mr. Warton.)

—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be read a second time."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER)

said, it was only right the Committee should understand the view the Government took in this matter. As the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Warton) had implied, this matter was of considerable importance. Both he himself, and, he believed, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Taunton (Sir Henry James), had received communications from Returning Officers of nearly every county in England respecting this matter; and he could not help thinking that there was a great deal in the case made by the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Warton). In the first place, the number of polling places would be largely increased in the counties; in the next place, the hours of polling were extended, the result being that it would be essential that, in many districts, the presiding officer should go down to the polling place the day before the election—especially in places where railway communication was difficult. The question was whether or not these officials should themselves bear the extra cost of discharging their duties. No one would deny that in the altered circumstances under which elections would take place, one day more, or almost one day more, than had hitherto been required would be found necessary in many cases. Then they must bear in mind the importance of keeping up to its present standard the class of men engaged to perform these duties. There was no question that men would be got at the lower scale of remuneration; but he did not think it would be to the interest of the electors of the country, or of the House itself, that a class of men should be employed on whom less reliance could be placed than on those at present appointed. It was, to a certain extent, a candidate's question; because any increase of these payments would have to be paid by the candidates. It was also an elector's question; because it was not desirable that anyone should be employed in the management of the poll who was not above suspicion. Under these circumstances, he considered that the best course for him to take, as representing the Government, would be to leave the matter to the judgment of the Committee. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Taunton had, he knew, received a deputation on this subject, and he hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman would inform the Committee what his view with regard to it was when he was in Office. If it were determined to increase the Returning Officer's fee from three guineas to four guineas, the clerk's fee should also be increased; and he thought the proposal of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Bridport to make the fee 30s. instead of £1 1s. a proposal which might very well be accepted.

SIR HENRY JAMES

said, he also thought that was a question which might be very well left to the judgment of the Committee. He considered it useless to assert a principle without listening to the very fair claims which might be made for deviation from that principle. He confessed that there had been strong arguments adduced to him, and very moderately put forward, not for any excessive increase in the payments in connection with Parliamentary elections, but in favour of an increase in one respect only. As far as the borough constituencies were concerned, he had received no request from them; and, although it was true that the hours would be longer in their case, he did not think the same difficulties would arise as would be found to exist in the counties. The payment would be the same as it was in the case of School Board elections. In the counties, however, the case was different; for, although the period the poll remained open was the same as in School Board elections, by the addition of the four hours the presiding officer would in many cases be compelled to take charge of the ballot-boxes during the night. He would have to take charge of himself and the ballot boxes, and at the time the poll closed might often find himself unable to proceed with safety and convenience to the central town where the votes would be counted. The expense of remaining where he was during the night he would have to defray himself, and the question was whether he ought not to receive remuneration for it. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General had truly remarked that the Sheriffs would be able to get someone to do the work at the present rate of remuneration; but they would be comparatively uneducated men. He quite admitted that the question was one affecting both candidates and electors. It was for county Members to say whether they were prepared to increase the expense of elections to the extent which would be required by the adoption of the proposed new clause, for the sake of securing the services of the same class of persons as those they obtained at present for the purpose of carrying on the work of the poll. For his own part, he was inclined to think that a good case had been made out for an increase in the rates of remuneration to presiding officers and clerks at county elections. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. Warton) applied his Amendment to borough elections, and he proposed the words— Where the poll is kept open to an hour later than 4 p.m. for the Returning Officer to charge four guineas," &c. This would apply only to elections which might take place between now and the General Election, and it seemed to him (Sir Henry James) that it would be better not to legislate for bye-elections in this manner. He would suggest that the hon. and learned Gentleman should alter his Amendment so as to follow the form of the Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Salt), which was follows:— Clause 2, at commencement of Clause, insert—'In the First Schedule to "The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875," the sum of £5 5s. 0d. shall he inserted for the sum of £3 3s. 0d. for each presiding officer, and the sum of £2 2s. 0d. for the sum of £1 1s. 0d. for each clerk employed at a polling station.' It was with some reluctance that he said it; but he was bound to say he was, on the whole, in favour of increasing the expenses of elections to the extent he had indicated.

MR. SALT

said, he was unable to move his Amendment because they had got beyond it; but if the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton) would take charge of it on Report, he should be glad to hand it over to him.

MR. WHITLEY

said, he was sorry to hear the remarks of the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Henry James) as to boroughs, because he could assure him that the same difficulty existed in them as had been referred to in connection with counties. The Town Clerk of Liverpool felt great difficulty in this matter in consequence of the extension of the hours of polling. No doubt, the work would be easy, if it were not for the duty of taking charge of the ballot boxes at night. The polling places would be the same, and the work would be the same; but the difficulties would be greatly increased. Where 60 presiding officers were required in large boroughs, difficulty was experienced in getting respectable men to perform the duties, and that difficulty would now be increased. In past years the duties had been well performed, because it had not been difficult to get solicitors and gentlemen of a like position to act; but he was told that solicitors declined to accept the duties in future for the remuneration proposed. They would have to look forward, therefore, to getting a lower class of official, and if they did they could not expect elections to be conducted in as satisfactory a manner as they should be. In his opinion, the Amendment should apply equally to boroughs as to counties.

MR. WARTON

said, he agreed with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Taunton (Sir Henry James) as to the desirability of leaving out of his Amendment the words "where the poll is kept open to an hour later than 4 p.m." No doubt, it was unnecessary to provide for elections which might occur before the next General Election. He knew that in certain cases candidates had had to provide for the payment to the presiding officers of sums greater than were allowed by law; and he knew that in these cases, unless this course had been adopted, the elections could not have been properly worked. He did not know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman, in giving preference to the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stafford (Mr. Salt), which could not be moved now, had intended to convey that he was in favour of a rather higher scale of payment to presiding officers and clerks than he (Mr. Warton) had proposed. The Amendment said— The sum of £5 5s. 0d. shall be inserted for the sum of £3 3s. 0d. for each presiding officer, and the sum of £2 2s. 0d. for the sum of £1 1s. 0d. for each clerk employed at a polling station; whereas the amounts he had proposed were £4 4s. and £1 10s. respectively.

SIR HENRY JAMES

said, that several deputations had waited upon him; but they had all come from the counties. He should be glad to ask the Attorney General whether he had received any representations from boroughs?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER)

I have received no representations whatever from boroughs.

MR. HICKS

said, he should like to know exactly the position in which they stood in regard to this matter. As he bad understood it, the question before them was the Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton), with the omission of the reference to 4 o'clock. He had understood that Amendment to be assented to by the hon. and learned Attorney General on behalf of the Government, and by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the late Attorney General. If that were so, surely it was not necessary to detain the Committee with one word more.

THE CHAIRMAN

The Question before the Committee is that the clause be read a second time.

MR. SEXTON

said, he was at a loss to understand the arguments in favour of the clause. He did not know whether any considerable representations had been made by these presiding officers and clerks in England on the subject; but, certainly, it was the opinion in Ireland that officials of this kind were paid well enough. A great many people, in fact, thought they were paid very well indeed, As to respectability, he did not think the extra guinea a-day would make any difference at all in the class of official who would be secured. The longest time the poll could remain open was 12 hours, and that was the working day of men of all ranks. He did not think any difficulty would be experienced in getting fitting Returning Officers at £3 3s.; in fact, he was sure very respectable men could be obtained for that amount. When counties were undivided, constituencies and large districts had to be traversed by the presiding officers—when some of them had to go to the polling place the day before the election, and take charge of the ballot boxes until the day after—there might have been some argument in favour of increased fees; but now that the counties were split up into districts the areas would be much smaller, and these difficulties would not exist. From the indications given by the two Front Benches, he begged to move that the Chairman report Progress.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Mr. Sexton,)—put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

SIR HENRY JAMES

said, he would now move to leave out of the clause the words "or borough." Being a borough Member himself, it would not, he thought, be considered that he was proposing anything unfair to the boroughs. The only reason he had for moving the Amendment was that the boroughs had not asked for the change, and that in their case the presiding officers and clerks would not have to face the same difficulties in the matter of travelling as would have to be faced by their brethren in the counties.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out the words "or borough."—(Sir Henry James.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. WARTON

said, he wished to make one remark about this. They were supposed to be following the law in all save the amount of the fees. Well, in the Act regulating these payments there was no distinction made between counties and boroughs; and as for the argument that greater distances would have to be travelled in counties than in boroughs, that was an argument which could have been quite as well used in 1875 as now, but evidently it had not been—or, if it had, it had been without effect. No representation had been made on this subject by those who had hitherto acted as Returning Officers in the boroughs, for the reason that they did not intend to offer themselves for the appointments in the future. Great difficulty had already been experienced in getting respectable men to do the work at the fees given, and if this Amendment were agreed to that difficulty would be greatly enhanced.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER)

said, that, in the representations which had been made to him, one of the principal grounds for demanding these increased fees had been that it would be necessary for the officials, in many cases, to go to the polling places the day before the election in order to be present at 8 o'clock, when the poll opened, and that it would be necessary for them to wait until the morning following the polling day to return to the central town with the ballot boxes. That argument could not be said to apply to the boroughs.

MR. WHITLEY

said, that if the Amendment were carried it would cause grave dissatisfaction. It was very difficult in large constituencies to get the right men to preside at the polling stations; and in the future it would be impossible if they were not to be properly paid. He trusted that those who were anxious to have elections properly conducted would vote for the clause of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton) in its entirety.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 8; Noes 54: Majority 46.—(Div. List, No. 252.)

MR. SEXTON

I beg to move, after the word "constituency," in line 3, to add the words "in England."

MR. WARTON

You mean "Great Britain."

Amendment proposed, in line 3, after the word "constituency," to add the words "in England."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. TOMLINSON

If we pass this I Amendment we shall exclude Scotland as well as Ireland.

SIR HENEY JAMES

said, the original Act of 1875 did not apply to Scotland at all, therefore they need not shrink from excluding Scotland. As there were some hon. Members anxious to see the distinction clearly drawn, it would be well to put in the words "in England."

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

SIR HENRY JAMES

I now move to omit the words "where the poll is kept open to an hour later than 4 p.m."

Amendment proposed, In lines 3 and 4, to leave out the words "where the poll is kept open to an hour later than 4 p.m."—(Sir Henry James.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Words left out accordingly.

MR. WARTON

said, he had another Amendment to move, which, not knowing that the Bill was coming on to-night, he had been unable to put upon the Paper. It was a clause to enable the Returning Officer, provided he did not exceed the legal maximum for the Returning Officer's charges, to apportion them as circumstances might render desirable. If this were agreed to, the Returning Officer might spend a little more on one item—on the poll book, clerks, legal advice, and so on—and a little less on another. It seemed only fair to extend to the Returning Officer the principle adopted in the case of the candidate, who had certain charges to pay—in respect of poll clerks, agents, printing, committee rooms, and so forth—and was allowed a maximum sum for the purpose to be apportioned as seemed desirable.

New Clause (Apportionment of Returning Officer's Charges,)—(Mr. Warton,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read the second time."

SIR HENEY JAMES

said, he had been going to make the request that the clause should be postponed to the Report stage. That was when he had not understood the proposal; but now that he did understand it he most strenuously objected to it. A Returning Officer might, if the clause were agreed to, cut down all other expenses but his own remuneration—for instance, erect insufficient polling places, or under-pay his assistants, and then keep the balance himself. No proposition could well be more objectionable.

MR. WARTON

I withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. J. B. BALFOUR

I beg to move the following Amendment:—

"Schedule.

Scale of payment to deputy returning officers. (1.) At a contested election. For every thousand or part of a thousand electors in the constituency, £1 10s. (2) At an uncontested election. For every thousand or part of a thousand electors, 10s. This is supplementary to certain Amendments made the other day.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

I wish to move this Amendment for my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy). In Preamble, page 1, line 11, after "amount," add "and otherwise to amend the above Act."

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

THE CHAIRMAN

The Question is, "That I report this Bill, as amended, to the House."

MR. WARTON

Before the Bill is reported, I wish to ask whether it will be reprinted before the next stage is taken? A great many Amendments have been made in it."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER)

Agreed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Wednesday, and to be printed.[Bill 251.]