HC Deb 20 July 1885 vol 299 cc1324-32

(11.) £1,213, to complete the sum for the Teachers' Pension Office, Ireland.

MR. SEXTON

said, he wished to ask one question on this Vote. In former years it had been the practice to allow a sum of from £7,000 to £10,000 for the purpose of making payments of retiring gratuities to National teachers in Ireland; but since the pension scheme came into operation those yearly payments on the Estimates had been discontinued or had dwindled down to a very small sum. The pension scheme had been floated out of the surplus of the Irish Church Fund. There was a strong desire on the part of the teachers to appeal to the Government to consider whether the annual payment of this £7,000 or £8,000 should not be continued in aid of pensions. The ages at which pensions were paid were 60 and 05; but he thought that they should be altered to 55 and 60. He thought also that the retiring gratuities should be continued. He considered it a mean and shabby thing for the Government to take advantage of the Irish Church Fund to relieve the National Exchequer. Would those payments be continued?

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY

said, the question was under consideration, and he did not know what was likely to be done.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

said, the right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Childers) was mainly responsible for the attempt to carry out the arrangement the hon. Member (Mr. Sexton) had referred to. The attempt had broken down in its operation, and the National teachers had some confidence that the right hon. Baronet (Sir William Hart Dyke) would try to find out means for enabling legislation to pass on the subject in that House.

COLONEL NOLAN

said, it did seem hard for teachers to have to wait until they were 60 or 65 before they were allowed to draw pensions. If the same practice were adopted in other Departments it would not, perhaps, be so hard on the teachers; but they knew that in other Departments the age of retirement in many cases was 40 and 45. In fact, in some cases in the Army the officers retired earlier. The teachers saw themselves obliged to work on until they were 60 or 65, and that had not only a bad effect on those who might wish to be retired, but it had a bad effect on the promotion of junior teachers. There had been some calculations made showing that the sum at the disposal of the Government out of the Church Surplus Fund was inadequate to allow the teachers to retire earlier; but, as his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had pointed out, if this sum of £7,000 or £8,000 were granted by the Treasury—and it would not be a fresh charge, for it had already been paid out of the National Exchequer—and were put with the amount derived from the Church Surplus Fund for pensions, which was at present insufficient for the purpose, a sum adequate to the necessities of the case might be the result. There was a similar case to this under another Estimate which he wished to refer to. When the allotment in respect of teachers' salaries was made out of the Irish Church Surplus Fund, a similar sum had been taken by the Treasury for another Department. So that the allotments from the Church Surplus Fund to interests in Ireland—whether to teachers or others—had all been for the benefit of the Treasury; and he thought that, under the circumstances, the Treasury might fairly increase the pensions so as to put the teachers in a somewhat better position than they onjoyed at the present moment, and enable them to retire at the age of 50 and 55, instead of 60 and 65.

Vote agreed to.

(12.) £470, to complete the sum for the Endowed Schools Commissioners, Ireland.

(13.) £1,701, to complete the sum for the National Gallery of Ireland.

COLONEL NOLAN

said, he should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the extremely meagre sum—he thought about £1,000—which was granted for the purchase of pictures in Ireland. He did not see why the people of Dublin should not have an opportunity of looking at pictures just as the people of London had.hedid not wish to be unreasonable and say that the people of Dublin should have as much money allowed them for the purchase of pictures as the people of London.hequite recognized that London, with its 4,000,000 inhabitants, had a right to a much larger sum than Dublin with its 300,000; but he did not see why the money could not be voted in fair proportion. How much had been allotted to the English National Gallery this year? He had been told that the other day the Government gave £80,000 for two pictures for the London National Gallery. They were excellent pictures, no doubt, and he did not say that they were not worth the money given for them; but when they had £80,000 allotted to England in one year, it did seem to him that the allotment of only £1,000 to Dublin was not a fair proportion. If Dublin had a fair proportion, from the point of view of population, she would receive £6,000 or £7,000. The hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Treasury would say that this was an exceptional year, and that the ordinary amount given to the English National Gallery would not, as a rule, be more than £7,000 or £8,000. However, he certainly would like to see a number of good pictures in Dublin. He should like some Member of the Government connected with the Board of Works, or whoever was responsible for the National Gallery, to verify a statement he had heard. He had heard that a large number of pictures were packed up in the National Gallery—in the cellars of that place—and were, consequently, of no use to anyone. He should think the pictures would be much more liable to damage in the cellars than if they were on the walls of some Gallery. If that statement was true— and he had either been told of it or had read it—he thought it would be only fair to allow one or two Irish and Scotch Members, and Members from Lancashire, from Birmingham, or other parts of the Provinces, to verify the matter; and if they found those pictures in the cellars, there was no reason why they should not be taken to Dublin, Edinburgh, or some to one place and some to another. At any rate, the pictures should do their proper duty of instructing the people, and that they would do in those Provincial towns much more efficaciously than if packed up and put away in the cellars of the National Gallery in London. He should like the Minister representing the Board of Works to say whether there were any pictures in the National Gallery which were not on the walls? If there were, he would propose that they should be temporarily distributed amongst some of the other important towns of the United Kingdom.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND)

said, the sum relating to the Irish Academy, to which the hon. and gallant Member referred, had been voted since 1871 down to 1882. Whenever there was a special picture the National Gallery of Dublin desired to purchase, they applied for a special grant, and some arrangement was made. As to the pictures put away in the National Gallery, he behaved there were a certain number in what were called the cellars, and that was why, he understood, that large structural additions were being made to the National Gallery. The matter, however, did not rest with the Secretary to the Treasury, but with the Trustees of the National Gallery.

COLONEL NOLAN

said, he would appeal to the Minister responsible. He believed the Minister representing the Board of Works had to do with the matter. He would ask whether Dublin could not have some of the pictures in the cellars of the National Gallery? He would not for a moment exclude Edinburgh, or other Provincial town?, from any arrangement which was made for the distribution of those pictures.

THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. PLUNKET)

said, the hon. and gallant Gentleman appealed to him and declared that it was desirable that he should cause some pictures in the National Gallery to be transferred to Ireland. Personally, he (Mr. Plunket) should be very glad to transfer pictures in that way; but, unfortunately, he had no power whatever in the matter. His authority extended only over the National Gallery building, in which the pictures were located, and he did not suppose that the hon. and gallant Gentleman would desire him to transfer that to Ireland. That, however, was all he had authority over; but if the hon. and gallant Member would make application on the subject to the Trustees of the National Gallery, he would promise him his support and sympathy.

MR. WILLIAM REDMOND

said, he did not altogether sympathize with the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Nolan) in desiring that a few of the worst pictures in the National Gallery, which had been sent down to the cellars of that Institution, should be given to Ireland. He did not think the people of Dublin would care to have those pictures unearthed by such a paltry show of generosity. They did not want any cast-off pictures. But the question which the hon. and gallant Member had raised as to the utter absurdity of devoting £1,000 to works of Art for Ireland, whilst £88,000 or £90,000 was spent in the same way for England, was a thing which ought to be ventilated and condemned. He did not consider it any proof of the desire of the Government to treat the two countries on terms of equality. He thought that if there were any more good pictures in the market which could be bought for £70,000 or £80,000, they ought to be purchased for Ireland. He remembered very well the discussion which had taken place in Committee with reference to the purchase of a picture for £70,000 or £80,000, when it was suggested that if the Irish Members acquiesced—as they ultimately did—in the purchase, they should be occasionally transferred from London to Dublin for the benefit of the people of the latter City, and to Edinburgh for the benefit of the inhabitants of the Scotch capital. He should like to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works whether it was the intention of the present Government to carry out the expressed determination of the late Government in this matter, and whether they would cause those pictures, which had cost such a vast sum of money, and which were now in the National Gallery, to be sent for a portion of the year for exhibition to Dublin and Edinburgh for the benefit of the Irish and the Scotch public? When the purchase of those recently acquired pictures was being discussed, the suggestion to which he was referring was thrown out and was met by the late Government in a friendly manner. £70,000 or £80,000 was a vast sum to pay out of the National Exchequer for two pictures. No doubt they were worth it; but when such a sum was spent out of the funds of the United Kingdom, it was altogether unfair that the benefit of the expenditure should be confined exclusively to London. Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Plunket) inform him as to whether it was the intention of the present Government to transfer those pictures for a portion of the year to Dublin and Edinburgh? If he could not answer in the affirmative, it was very likely that very strong opposition would be offered to any future expenditure on pictures for the National Gallery.

SIR ROBERT FOWLER (LORD MAYOR)

said, he wished to point out that the pictures referred to by the hon. Member were of very great value. If the course suggested could be safely undertaken, he should be very glad to agree to it; but it must be remembered that a picture which had cost £50,000— [An hon. MEMBER: £70,000.] The two were bought together. [An hon. MEMBER: One cost £70,000!] That was all the better for his argument. It would be rather a dangerous thing to allow a picture which had cost such a sum as that to spend a large portion of its time travelling between London and Dublin, Dublin and Edinburgh, Edinburgh and London, and so on. He should be glad to do anything he could to encourage and develop Art in Ireland, but he certainly thought that pictures so valuable as those should not be sent travelling about the country. If the pictures were to go to Dublin and remain there permanently, well and good; let them go and remain there. But as they were bought for the National Gallery in London, he thought it would be a dangerous thing to remove them. They did not find other capitals sending pictures out of the Galleries to which they belonged. [Colonel NOLAN: Oh, yes, you do.] The hon. and gallant Member for Galway said they did. He should like to know whether the hon. and gallant Member had ever seen the "Transfiguration" in any other place than Rome? If he had, he (Sir Robert Fowler) would be glad to listen to the hon. and gallant Member. Pictures of this kind always remained in the Galleries in which they were placed; and he certainly thought the suggestion of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. W. Redmond) was impracticable, and quite incapable of being carried out.

COLONEL NOLAN

said, that the right hon. Baronet had appealed to his recollection of modern Art Galleries. It could not be expected that he should go through all the important works in Europe; but certainly, if his memory served him right, he had seen valuable pictures in Paris which had made the journey from Seville for the purpose of temporary exhibition. [Sir ROBERT FOWLER: During the war!] One of those transfers had taken place during the war, but he had seen one of those pictures in Paris after the war. Besides this, he had heard that pictures had been carried long distances—from Venice to Paris, for instance—for purposes of exhibition. The journey between Venice and Paris was a much more dangerous journey than that between London and Dublin. He could not agree with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Redmond) who objected to pictures being sent over to Dublin from the cellars of the National Gallery. Damage was being done to those pictures in the cellars of the National Gallery, and it would be surely better to send them out for purposes of exhibition than to keep them hidden and suffering damage. But that was not the most important point. The Government, he thought, should put down £10,000 for Fine Arts in Dublin. He did not profess to be an authority on Fine Arts himself, though he quite saw how useful they were whether in the Galleries of this country or the Galleries of Ireland. So far as he understood the matter, he believed the mass of the population in Ireland were more inclined to visit Picture Galleries and received more benefit from them than the mass of the English people.

Vote agreed to.

(14.) £1,000, to complete the sum for the Royal Irish Academy.

MR. HEALY

said, he had several times put questions with regard to the condition of the Annals of Ulster, and he had more than once been assured that they were about to be completed. He found, however, that the matter had now dropped out of the Estimates. An arrangement, he believed, had been made by which the Council of the Academy could carry on the work with j the materials at their disposal, and the Government had always given a pledge that it was on the point of completion. He had great respect for the Royal Irish Academy, but he did think that a little more vigour required to be infused into some of its members. No one in the Academy seemed to know anything about the Annals. Mr. Isaac Butt had been refused admission on the Body; also Mr. A. M. Sullivan and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Carlow (Mr. Gray). In that way the Academy was practically a close Corporation. He did not wish to go into that question; but he did think that some more life required to be infused into the work carried on by the Academy. The Academy was properly supported by the Government, and was a most important institution. It deserved all the support it could get, yet he did think that some little stimulus— by money or in some other way—was required to induce its members to carry out the great historical labours for which the Institution had been founded. In the case he had referred to, the Academy had been years and years at the work. Some of the members were very old and could not put on steam to any great extent. He believed that something like unnecessary delay had taken place, and that probably the work would be expedited by granting a larger sum of money.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, everyone regretted that the delay the hon. and learned Gentleman referred to had taken place; and it was, no doubt, generally desired that a desire for more expedition should be infused into the Body. A representation should be made to them on the subject.

Vote agreed to.

THE CHAIRMAN

The Question is that I report these Resolutions to the House.

MR. SEXTON

said, that on that Question he wished to call attention to Vote 18 in this Class—the Vote for the Queen's Colleges in Ireland. This was always an important subject, but this year it acquired special importance, because the authorities of the Catholic Church in Ireland had passed a most important Resolution dealing with the question of higher education in Ireland. It would be the duty of the Irish Members to call attention to the subject, and he thought the Government would find it convenient, therefore, to set apart a special Sitting for the discussion of the question of the Queen's Colleges. He (Mr. Sexton) made that proposal with the assent of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell), who was fully sensible of the importance of the matter.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND)

We will not take it on Wednesday.

MR. SEXTON

When will it be taken?

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY

I will consult my right hon. Friends on the subject.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

I stated some time ago that the Army Estimates would be taken on Wednesday. We find, however, that that would be inconvenient; therefore we propose to take the remainder of the other Estimates, and not the Army Estimates.

MR. SEXTON

What Irish Votes?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

We propose to begin where we have left off. We will take the Queen's College and the other Votes.

COLONEL NOLAN

When will the Report of Supply that we have voted to-night be taken?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

To-morrow.