HC Deb 26 February 1885 vol 294 cc1421-4
MR. SEXTON

I wish to know whether the Government will allow the Motion for going into Committee of Supply to be made in the ordinary way on Friday night, so that the Motion of which I have given Notice in respect to Mr. Speaker's action in Naming Mr. O'Brien on Tuesday may be brought to an issue?

MR. GLADSTONE

The Government are not prepared to interfere with the ordinary course of procedure.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that it is not intended to give precedence to the Motion of the hon. Member?

MR. GLADSTONE

I do not think we have any option in the matter. My duty to the right hon. Gentleman, and to the House, is to persevere in going on from day to day with a Motion which is in the nature of a Vote of Censure.

MR. HEALY

I wish to ask you, Sir, a Question upon a matter of Order in relation to an entry on the Votes, affecting the Journals of the House, which appears in the Votes at page 134, in the following words:— Mr. O'Brien, Member for Mallow, having been Named by Mr. Speaker for abusing the Rules of the House, by disorderly interruption, and so on. Can you inform me, Sir, which of the Rules of the House the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) abused, and what was the nature of the disorderly interruption? Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you will further inform me whether the new Standing Order, No. 12, is not in these terms— That, whenever any Member shall have been Named by the Speaker, or by the Chair-man of a Committee of the Whole House, immediately after the commission of the offence of disregarding the authority of the Chair; and also if the Rule does not go on to say— or of abusing the Rules of The House by persistently and wilfully obstructing the Business of the House, or otherwise, That appears to be the Motion which ought to have been made; but the entry in the Journals is— Mr. O'Brien, Member for Mallow, having been Named by Mr. Speaker for abusing the Rules of the House, by disorderly interruption. The words in the Standing Order "or otherwise," simply refer to a breach of the Rules of the House, and do not give the Chair any distinct authority to Name a Member for disorderly interruption. I wish to ask which is correct—whether the entry in the Journals is correct, or the statement which you made in the House, that you suspended the hon. Member for Mallow for disregarding the authority of the Chair? At any rate, the latter is the statement which appeared in the newspapers on Wednesday; and the offence, in every report which I have seen, was for "disregarding the authority of the Chair," and not for "abusing the Rules of the House by disorderly interruption."

MR. SPEAKER

I have no difficulty in answering the Question of the hon. Member. I consider that the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) both disregarded the authority of the Chair, and also abused the Rules of the House by disorderly interruption—which is clearly covered by the words of the Standing Order "or otherwise."

MR. HEALY

May I call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the words "or otherwise" in no way justify your ruling? The words are these— That, whenever any Member shall have been Named by Mr. Speaker, or by the Chairman of a Committee of the Whole House, immediately after the commission of the offence of disregarding the authority of the Chair, or of abusing the Rules of The House by persistently and wilfully obstructing the Business of The House, or otherwise. That is to say, that there must be an abuse of the Rules of the House in one way or another. And, therefore, if your ruling is correct, there must be some other Rule in existence which is altogether different from that which I have read. There is a Rule against wilful and persistent Obstruction, and against any disregard of the authority of the Chair. Before a Member can be suspended he must abuse that Rule or some other. It is evident, therefore, Sir, that if your ruling is good there must be some other Standing Order; and I beg to ask what other Rule exists upon the matter?

MR. SPEAKER

I have given my ruling. I have explained the construction which I put upon the Standing Order, and the House is in possession of my reasons.

MR. HEALY

But I wish to ask you by what means you arrived at your decision that Mr. O'Brien ought to be suspended for "disorderly interruption?" I want to know whether the ruling comes within the Rule of Privilege, as I understand it does? When a Member challenges a Minute which appears in the Journals of the House for inaccuracy—because, Mr. Speaker, I am supported in that assertion, not only by the recollection of my hon. Friends, but by all the reports of your remarks which appear in the newspapers, that you suspended Mr. O'Brien for "disregarding the authority of the Chair." There is, no doubt, a distinct authority for that in the Standing Order; but I ask you when, and where, and how—[Cries of "Oh!"] That is "disorderly interruption," for which the hon. Members who resort to it are liable to be suspended. I wish to know how I am to challenge the entry made by the clerks in the Journals of the House, and whether I am not entitled to do so at once?

MR. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member objects to an entry in the Journals with reference to the proceedings of a previous day, he has only to give a Notice of Motion in the ordinary way.

MR. HEALY

Again I ask you, Sir, whether you are correctly reported in the use of those words? ["Order!"] I must remind hon. Members that this is a matter of taking away the rights of the elected Representatives of the people; and any power which Mr. Speaker has in this House is delegated from me and the likes of me, as well as from you (the Liberal Benches) and the likes of you. I beg to ask you, Mr. Speaker—and I do so with great respect—whether you are correctly reported in the Journals of the House to have used these words— Mr. O'Brien, Member for Mallow, having been Named by Mr. Speaker for abusing the Rules of the House by disorderly interruption; or whether you are correctly reported in The Times, that you Named Mr. O'Brien for "disregarding the authority of the Chair?"

MR. SPEAKER

I do not accept the distinction drawn by the hon. Member. I Named Mr. O'Brien for disorderly interruption, which I think brought him within the Standing Order, by which power is given to me to enforce the authority of this House.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

May I ask the Prime Minister whether, as regards the Resolution of which Notice has been given by my hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton), seeing that it relates to the conduct of the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair, he will afford the earliest opportunity for bringing it before the House?

MR. GLADSTONE

I see no reason whatever why I should deviate, in any respect, from the usual course of Public Business in order to afford an opportunity for the renewal of a scene such as that which we have recently witnessed?

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

May I ask whether there has ever been a single instance where the conduct of Mr. Speaker has been impugned in which an opportunity was not immediately given for vindicating it?

MR. SPEAKER

The course now proposed—namely, to proceed by Notice—has been repeatedly followed when the conduct of the Speaker in the Chair has been challenged. In fact, that is the ordinary and proper course.