HC Deb 24 February 1885 vol 294 cc1187-93

Rule 9 (Order in Debate).

MR. SPEAKER

I Name Mr. O'Brien for disregarding the authority of the Chair.

MR. KENNY (and other Irish MEMBERS)

Name away.

MR. GLADSTONE

I was on the point. Sir, of making another Motion in accordance with the intimation which fell from you at the moment when the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) was Named from the Chair. My duty, however, in relation to the Naming of a Member takes precedence of the duty I was about to perform. I now beg to move—"That Mr. O'Brien be suspended from the service of the House."

MR. O'BRIEN

It is the only honour I have any ambition for.

MR. SEXTON

I rise to a point of Order.

MR. SPEAKER

The Question I have to put is, "That Mr. O'Brien be suspended from the service of the House."

Mr. SEXTON

remained standing.

An Irish MEMBER: The object is to destroy our votes.

MR. SEXTON

I wish, Sir, to address you on a point of Order.

MR. SPEAKER

No debate can be allowed upon this Question.

MR. SEXTON

I have no desire to raise a debate; but I rise to a point of Order. [Cries of "Order!" and "Chair!"]

MR. SPEAKER

As no debate is allowed on this Question it is my duty to put it from the Chair.

MR. SEXTON

I repeat, Sir, that I do not rise for the purpose of raising a debate, but merely to speak upon a point of Order.

MR. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member rises to a point of Order he can be heard.

MR. SEXTON

I wish to submit to you, Sir, that on every occasion hitherto, when a Member has been suspended from the service of the House for disregarding the authority of the Chair, this formula has always been ob- served by the Speaker—"Mr. So-and-so, I Name you to the House for disregarding the authority of the Chair;" and then a Minister of the Crown has moved a Motion to suspend him from the service of the House. On this occasion, Sir, the only words which passed your lips were "Mr. O'Brien." You said nothing further.

MR. SPEAKER

The course which I adopted was perfectly regular. The Question is, "That Mr. O'Brien be suspended from the service of the House."

The House divided:—Ayes 244; Noes 20: Majority 224.—(Div. List, No. 28.)

MR. SPEAKER,

having read the numbers, said: I now call upon the hon. Member for Mallow to withdraw.

MR. O'BRIEN,

rising: Certainly, Mr. Speaker; and I shall leave the House with far more pleasure than I ever entered it.

Mr. O'BRIEN

then withdrew.

MR. GLADSTONE

In consequence of the declaration made from the Chair immediately before the last Question was put, I beg now to move "That the Question be now put."

MR. SPEAKER

The original Question was— That the Notices of Motions be postponed until after the Order of the Day for resuming the Adjourned Debate on Egypt and the Soudan"— since which an Amendment has been moved, after the word "Motions," to insert the words "except the Motion relating to the Royal Irish Constabulary (District Inspector Murphy)." The Question I have now to put is, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. PARNELL

I rise to a point of Order. I wish to submit to you, Sir, that the Question is not "That those words be there inserted," but that in accordance with the Standing Order you should first put the Question, "That the Question be now put."

MR. SPEAKER

It is in accordance with the Standing Order that I have now put the Question—the Question being the insertion of these words.

The House was cleared for a Division.

MR. GORST

(speaking seated, and covered): I beg to submit a point of Order. You, Sir, having, in accordance with the Standing Order, intimated that in your opinion the subject has been adequately discussed, and that the evident sense of the House is in favour of coming to a conclusion upon it, I submit that in accordance with the Standing Order the Question put from the Chair should be, "That the Question be now put." Upon the Question being so proposed and put from the Chair there may be a Division. If in that Division fewer than 200 Members vote for the Motion, then the debate ought to be continued, unless the minority is less than 40. I submit, therefore, that the mode in which the Question has been put is not regular, and is not in accordance with the Standing Order.

MR. SPEAKER

The Question immediately before the House was the Amendment, and the Question put to the House was, "That the Question be now put." The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister made that Motion.

MR. SEXTON

You never put that Question.

MR. SPEAKER

The right hon. Gentleman put the Question, "That the Question be now put."

MR. SEXTON

With all due deference, the right hon. Gentleman only made that Motion; he could not put it.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

You never put the Question, "That the Question be now put." It was for you, Sir, to put that Question to the House.

MR. SPEAKER

I put the Question to the House from the Chair, "That the Question be now put."

Several Irish MEMBERS: No, Sir; certainly not. Never.

MR. SPEAKER

I am in the recollection of the House, and I said that the Motion was, "That the Question be now put." The Question then immediately before the House was the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Queen's County; and I thought it was my duty to put the Question, "That the Question be now put," on the Amendment as well as on the Main Question.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

I wish to represent to you, Sir, that the House has not had an opportunity of deciding the question whether the Question be now put.

MR. PARNELL

I submit, with great respect, that one Question only can be put at a time, and that we should, in accordance with the Standing Order, be permitted to ascertain the sense of the House on the first Question—namely, "That the Question be now put."

MR. SPEAKER

My view was that I did put to the House the Question "That the Question be now put" upon the Amendment, which was then before the House. I should again have to put the Question "That the Question be now put" upon the Main Question, when that came up for decision. That is the view which I took, and I believe that it is in compliance with the Standing Order.

MR. GORST

Is the Question now before the House, and upon which the House is now about to vote, the Question "That the Question be now put?"

MR. SPEAKER

Yes; the Question before the House is "That the Question be now put."

The House divided:—Ayes 207; Noes 46: Majority 161.—(Div. List, No. 29.)

MR. GLADSTONE

I believe, Sir, that under your ruling from the Chair it now devolves upon me to make a Motion—[Cries of "Question!" from the Irish Members.]

Question put, "That the words 'except the Motion relating to the Royal Irish Constabulary (District Inspector Murphy)' be there inserted."

The House divided:—Ayes 235; Noes 19: Majority 216.—(Div. List, No. 30.)

Main Question again proposed.

MR. PARNELL

I must say that I sympathize very greatly with the desire of my hon. Friends to secure from the Government an opportunity for discussing the question of the case of Mr. Inspector Murphy; but as that matter has been finally decided by the vote of the House, of course I shall not be permitted by the Rules of the House to refer to it any further. I will only, in speaking on the general question of the postponement of the Orders of the Day, pay that I am bound to think that my hon. Friends have made out their case, that there was no urgency whatever for the Motion of the Prime Minister; and I am bound to think that the House might very easily be allowed to pursue its ordinary course without diverging into the shoals and quicksands of the Soudan and Arabian politics. For my part, I look upon the debate which commenced and proceeded yesterday as, to a considerable extent, a sham debate, and one of a foregone conclusion; and although, undoubtedly, it is customary, when the Leader of the Front Opposition Bench makes a request that the Government of the day should place facilities at his disposal for the purpose of moving a Vote of Censure, that the Government should afford such facilities under such circumstances, yet still, if ever there was an occasion when that custom might have been departed from, it was now, when, after repeated assaults and Motions of no confidence in the Government, the Front Opposition Bench with their Party came forward once more with a Motion which is evidently some subterfuge, and not based on any real desire to upset Her Majesty's Government. Therefore I say that, from that point of view, the Government might reason ably have refused the request of the Leader of the Opposition to be furnished with Government time for the purpose of carrying on the debate on the Vote of Censure. But, Sir, the case is still stronger as regards private Members, and certainly as regards the private Members who sit in this part of the House. We were asked earlier in the Session, in the interests of the Redistribution Bill, to give up all opportunities of discussing Irish questions until that Bill had been passed. We are now asked to-night to give up all opportunities of discussing Irish questions until this Vote of Censure has been disposed of; and I submit that there is no ground whatever why either the Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition should make such a demand upon us. The opportunities which belong to private Members have been steadily infringed upon of recent years; but it has been reserved for this Session for the Government to turn over what is practically a new leaf, and to commence at the beginning of the Session to take a step which is usually taken after the Whitsuntide holidays. Therefore, Sir, we are obliged, in self-defence, with the small instinct of self-preservation that may be left to us, to contest such a Motion as this, and to incur the grave and weighty displeasure of both of the front Benches in our attempt to defend the privileges of private Members. I regret exceedingly that the great bulk of Members should yield so facilely to the orders and directions of the two front Benches. The time has nearly come when, if this sort of thing continues, the Government of the day will absorb all the time of the House, and when the facilities which private Members now enjoy for the ventilation of their grievances will have disappeared altogether. We shall then see the Leader of the Opposition humbly craving, not as a matter of right, but as a matter of favour, a day from the all-powerful Government of Her Majesty for the purpose of moving a Vote of Censure, and, perhaps, not getting it. Now, Sir, I am forbidden to touch—it would be out of Order to do so—on the question of the Motion of my hon. Friend; but if the debate had been allowed to continue, I should have suggested that the Government might have made some sort of promise that some time would be given, not necessarily during the course of this debate, but during the proceedings on the Redistribution Bill, for the purpose of considering that Motion—some time that might have been convenient to Her Majesty's Government, and which they might easily find upon some evening when the question of the Redistribution Bill might be adjourned at 11 or half-past 11, so that my hon. Friend might have an opportunity of proceeding with his Motion. However, as I have said, that question is disposed of. It only, therefore, remains for me to say that we will take a Division against the Motion of the Prime Minister, so that we may protest, in that way, as strongly as we can against what we must consider to be the most unreasonable and arbitrary conduct of the two front Benches and their followers on the present occasion.

Main Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 222; Noes 19: Majority 203.—(Div. List, No. 31.)

Ordered, That the Notices of Motions be postponed until after the Order of the Day for resuming' the Adjourned Debate on Egypt and the Soudan.

The following is the entry in the Votes:— NOTICES OF MOTIONS,—Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Notices of Motions be postponed until after the Order of the Day for resuming the Adjourned Debate on Egypt and the Soudan:"—(Mr. Gladstone:)— Mr. Speaker, having called the attention of the House to continued irrelevance on the part of Mr. William Redmond, Member for Wexford, directed the honourable Member to discontinue his speech:— Amendment proposed, after the word "Motions," to insert the words "except the Motion relating to the Royal Irish Constabulary (District Inspector Murphy:"—(Mr. Arthur O'Connor:)— Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted:"— And it appearing to Mr. Speaker that the subject had been adequately discussed, and that it was the evident sense of the House that the Question should be put, he so informed the House. Mr. O'Brien, Member for Mallow, having been Named by Mr. Speaker for abusing the Rules of the House, by disorderly interruption:— Motion made, and Question put, "That Mr. O'Brien be suspended from the service of the House:"—(Mr. Gladstone:)—The House divided; Ayes 244, Noes 20. Mr. Speaker then directed Mr. O'Brien to withdraw, and he withdrew accordingly. Motion made, and Question put, "That the Question be now put:"—(Mr. Gladstone:)—The House divided;Ayes 207, Noes 46. Question put, "That the words 'except the Motion relating to the Royal Irish Constabulary (District Inspector Murphy)' be there inserted:"—The House divided; Ayes 19, Noes 235. Main Question put:—The House divided; Ayes 222, Noes 19. Ordered, That the Notices of Motions be postponed until after the Order of the Day for resuming the Adjourned Debate on Egypt and the Soudan.