HC Deb 12 August 1885 vol 300 cc1889-94

Order for Consideration of Lords' Amendments read.

Lords' Amendments considered.

Page 5, line 12, leave out ("twelve") and insert ("six"), the first Amendment, read a second time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—(Colonel Nolan.)

MR. SEXTON

said, he would impress upon the House the necessity and importance of disagreeing with the Lords in their Amendment. In another Bill the number of signatures required was 20.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, that the number 12 was inserted in the Bill with the unanimous assent of the Commons; and if the objection was pressed they were not prepared to agree with the Lords in reducing the number to "six."

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendments, as far as page 6, line 38, read a second time.

Page 6, line 38, leave out ("more") and insert ("less.")

MR. SEXTON,

in rising to move that the House do disagree with the Lords in this Amendment, giving the landlord more than one month, instead of one month, to petition against a scheme for the erection of cottages, said, it would enable a landlord to obstruct indefinitely any scheme. He would not press his objection, however, if the Government promised that they would get the Local Government Board to make a regulation against undue time being given to petition. It would remain entirely at their discretion, and he should be satisfied with an assurance that they would not permit any unreasonable delay, seeing that it was of the essence of the Bill that it should be promptly carried into effect.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE)

said, he would promise that the Local Government Board would issue such regulations. The matter, as the hon. Gentleman had said, would be entirely under their control, and he did not think there was any intention that the time should be unduly extended.

Amendment agreed to.

Page 10, after the first ("cottage") insert ("which is in a bad state of repair"), and leave out ("or may purchase any existing cottage"), the next Amendment, read a second time.

MR. SEXTON,

in rising to move that the House do disagree with the Lords in this Amendment in reference to the compulsory purchase of cottages in a good state of repair, said, the effect of the Amendment would be that while the Board of Guardians could purchase a house in a bad state of repair, and allot half an acre of land to it, they would have no power to do the same with respect to a cottage in a good state of repair. The result would be that the labourer in a bad cottage at the present moment would soon be better off than a labourer now occupying a good cottage.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—(Mr. Sexton.)

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, that the Government must support the Lords' Amendment in this case. They could not give the Sanitary Authority power to purchase compulsorily cottages in a good state of repair.

COLONEL NOLAN

pressed upon the Government the necessity of disagreeing with the Lords' Amendment.

COLONEL COLTHURST

supported the Motion of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton).

MR. VILLIERS STUART

said, he also thought the Government should reject the Amendment made by the Lords.

COLONEL KING-HARMAN

said, he thought the difficulty which presented itself to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland, regarding houses in good repair, would be met by enabling the Guardians to purchase "by agreement" houses in a good state of repair.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE)

said, that the Government would accept the proposal of the hon. and gallant Member for the County of Dublin (Colonel King-Harman) to add the words "by agreement" to the Amendment of the Lords.

MR. HEALY

said, that would not meet the difficulty, as there was no power given under the Act to enable the Guardians to add the half-acre of land to a cottage in good repair purchased "by agreement."

MR. SEXTON

said, they would accept the addition of the words "by agree- ment," if the Government would consent to add— And may purchase and allot to any occupant of any such existing cottage half an acre of land.

MR. TOTTENHAM

said, there would be no objection to the proposal if the half-an-acre of land, as well as the cottage in good repair, were purchased by agreement.

MR. SEXTON

said, they would accept that as the best they could get.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Lords' Amendment amended, by inserting in lieu of the words struck out by the Lords, the following words:— ("Or may purchase by agreement any existing cottage, or by agreement may purchase and allot to the occupant of such existing cottage half an acre of land.")

Page 8, line 22, after the word "acre," to insert— Provided also, That, except in the case of a tract of land in the neighbourhood of a town or village as aforesaid, a sanitary authority shall not let or permit to be held any land acquired by them under the said Act, as amended by this Act, to or by any person who is not also tenant to the sanitary authority of a dwelling-house, the next Amendment, being read a second time.

Amendment proposed to be made to the said Lords' Amendment, by leaving out the words "in the case of a tract of land in the neighbourhood of a town or village as aforesaid," and inserting the words "as hereinbefore provided,"—(Mr. Sexton,)—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the said Amendment."

Amendment to the said Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment agreed to.

Page 8, leave out lines 24 & 25, the next Amendment, disagreed to.

Page 9, line 36, after ("authority") insert ("subject to the approval of the Local Government Board"), the next Amendment, read a second time.

MR. SEXTON,

in rising to move that the House do not agree with this Amendment, making the area of chargeability of any scheme as fixed by the Guardians to be subject to the approval of the Local Government Board, said, the Boards of Guardians were composed half of elected representatives and half of ex officios, practically appointed by the Crown; and he did not see why the House of Lords should object to such a body having the power to fix the area of chargeability as they thought proper. If the Boards of Guardians had not this power, the effect would be disastrous on the prospect of working the Bill. That was shown conclusively in the Tullamore Union, where a scheme of 50 cottages fell through, because the Local Government Board insisted that the area of charge should be the electoral division, the smallest area possible, instead of the dispensary district as fixed by the Guardians. It was most unreasonable that full discretion in the matter should not be left to the Sanitary Authorities.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—(Mr. Sexton.)

MR. HEALY

said, he would point out that the landlord party had the majority in most of the Unions; and therefore there could not possibly be any objection, from that point of view, of giving this power to the Guardians. The Local Government Board, in these matters, generally acted on the advice of their Inspectors. Now, he supposed one of the most inefficient men in Ireland was Colonel Spaight, the Chief of those Inspectors. ["Oh, oh!"] If a person looked the whole country through, they could not find a more inefficient man. His evidence before the House of Lords showed that, and yet it was to such men, played-out Militiamen and played-out military men, that they were going to entrust this power, instead of to the elected representatives of the ratepayers and those representing the landlords, who knew the requirements of the different localities.

MR. TOTTENHAM

said, he hoped that the Government would not give way on this point, and would adhere to the Lords' Amendment.

COLONEL COLTHURST

said, that if the choice of the area of charge was to be left to anyone, he did not see any harm in the Local Government Board having power to confirm or reverse the decision of the Guardians. He should prefer that the area of charge was the whole Union.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, it was impossible for the Government to agree with the Lords' Amendment. What had been done in the matter in that House was the result of a long discussion. It was suggested that, for the purposes of this Act, there should be a national rate; and then it was suggested that there should be a Union rate. The Government could not agree to those proposals, and after a long discussion the House felt that a fair solution of the question would be to leave the matter to the discretion of the Sanitary Authority.

COLONEL KING-HARMAN

said, that he supposed it was useless for him to discuss the matter after the decision of the Government as stated by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. He wished, however, to deny the statement of the hon. and learned Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy) that the elected Guardians were generally in a hopeless minority. Such was not the fact.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendments as far as after Clause 19, insert Clauses (A.), (B.), and (C.), read a second time.

Clause (A.) amended by inserting after ("lands") in line 8 the words ("in the same locality").

Subsequent Amendments agreed to.

Committee appointed, "to draw up Reasons to be assigned to The Lords for disagreeing to several of the Amendments made by The Lords to the said Bill;"—Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE, Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND, Mr. BOURKE, Sir HENRY HOLLAND, Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL, Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Mr. SEXTON, Colonel NOLAN, Colonel COLTHURST, and Mr. HEALY:—To withdraw immediately;—Three to be the quorum.

Subsequently,

Reasons for disagreeing to the Lords' Amendments reported, and agreed to.

To be communicated to the Lords.