OBSERVATIONS. (Hansard, 20 November 1884)

MR. GORST
said, he wished, before the Report was agreed to, to put a Question to the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies in regard to the instructions to Sir Charles Warren, which had been recently delivered to the House. He was sorry to appear persistent in that matter; but the truth was that in all those Colonial questions they heard two voices from the Government—namely, the voice of the President of the Board of Trade in that House, who spoke with great firmness, energy, and decision, and the voice of the Earl of Derby, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, which was characterized by considerable hesitation and a very different spirit. When that subject was under the discussion of the House, and when they were much re-assured by the statement of the President of the Board of Trade, there was in the minds of hon. Members considerable anxiety on two points. The first was as to what was to be the nature of the intervention of the Cape Government. The Papers which had been delivered to them showed most distinctly a difference of opinion between the High Commissioner and the Cape Government in regard to that intervention. The Cape Government apparently only desired to 78 make their way into Goshen Land for the purpose of coming to some arrangement with the freebooters. The other point was that the military operation, which Her Majesty's Government undertook not a day too soon for the vindication of the national honour, might be delayed, and delayed indefinitely, by reason of that intervention of the Cape Government. Now, on both of the points which were the justification for any intervention the replies in that House of the President of the Board of Trade were so satisfactory and so clear that he (Mr. Gorst) immediately removed from the Paper the Amendment of which he had given Notice. The President of the Board of Trade said that Her Majesty's Government had only given their approval to the proposals made by the Cape Government on the distinct understanding that the arrangement made by the Cape Government should be such as would practically restore Montsioa to the position which he occupied when the British Protectorate was announced. The right hon. Gentleman further said he did not think much of Cape intervention, and he shared the fears of the right hon. Baronet that not much would come of that peaceful intervention. He added that the Government had accepted the proposal of the Cape Government, subject to the condition that the military operations should not be delayed by the action of the Cape Government. These statements were made on the 4th of November; but on the 10th of November the official instructions to Sir Charles Warren were issued, and in those instructions there was a paragraph which spoke in a very different voice. That paragraph ran as follows:— You will, of course, clearly understand that Her Majesty's Government have agreed that the Cape Ministers shall, in the first instance, endeavour to effect a peaceful settlement of the difficulties about Montsioa's territory. This was scarcely an agreement on the part of the Government; it was a proposal made by the Cape Government to which Her Majesty's Government had reluctantly assented. It was added that— Active military operations shall not he commenced until a reasonable time has elapsed. He (Mr. Gorst) would like to ask what was the interpretation placed by the Government upon these phrases; because it seemed to him that this was tanta- 79 mount to saying that the intervention of the Cape Government was to delay the military operations. The House would be very glad to have an assurance from the President of the Board of Trade that no jot of the statement which he had made the other night had been abated because of the instructions which had been given to Sir Charles Warren. He was quite certain that nothing but the firmest declaration on the part of the right hon. Gentleman that these freebooters must be removed, at whatever cost, would prevent that bloodshed which they were all desirous to avoid. In the absence of such a declaration, if he were a freebooter he would be inclined to hold on; and he, therefore, appealed to the Government to make their determination clear.

§ MR. CHAMBERLAIN
I cannot have the slightest difficulty in giving the hon. and learned Gentleman the assurance he requires. Undoubtedly, the declarations I made the other night on behalf of the Government will not be abated one jot, either by myself or by my Colleagues; and I do not see anything in the slightest degree inconsistent in those declarations and in the instructions to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has called attention. Those instructions contained a statement that active military operations will not be commenced till a reasonable time has elapsed. That is little more than a statement of fact, for it is almost impossible that Sir Charles Warren should get to Kimberley till nearly the end of next month; and the time that must of necessity be occupied by him in journeying and preparation may be very well, and I hope usefully, occupied by the Ministry at the Cape in the negotiations to which we had agreed at their instance. These are to be conducted under the strictest limitations; and under no circumstances will the Cape Ministers have our authority to make arrangements that will not practically restore Montsioa to the territory from which he has been so unjustly ousted. If the hon. and learned Gentleman were a freebooter, and were to act as he says he should act, he would, I think, be a very imprudent freebooter indeed. Nothing is more clear than our declarations that the freebooters must go from the land they have unjustly taken. We hope that object may be accomplished without force; but, if 80 necessary, force has been provided, and force will be used.

§ MR. R. N. FOWLER
said, he could not understand the statement as to the time at which Sir Charles Warren would arrive at Kimberley. He did not know why he should not be there within a week of his arrival at the Cape. The answer of the President of the Board of Trade was very satisfactory. He hoped the Government would show firmness in this matter, and would make the freebooters understand that Her Majesty's Government were determined that justice should be done to this unfortunate Chief.

§ SIR DONALD CURRIE
said, that, allowing Sir Charles Warren two or three days for consultation, and reckoning the time it would take him to go up the country, it would be the end of the month before he could reach his destination.

§ MR. EVELYN ASHLEY
said, that Sir Charles Warren's original calculation, when he proposed to leave on the 7th of November, was that he would arrive at Cape Town on the 27th of November, and at Kimberley on the 15th of December, and leave that place on the 20th of December. He did not, however, leave England till the 13th of November, or about a week later than he at first intended.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL
said, he did not object to the handing over of this territory to the Cape Colony, though he greatly doubted whether it would be an advantage to the Native Chiefs; but what he was greatly opposed to was the undertaking of responsibility by Her Majesty's Government for that territory in the heart of South Africa, which could not be got at except through the Cape Colony. He hoped the Cape Ministers would be able to adjust matters. Otherwise, we might be involved in a great expenditure for the benefit of others.

§ MR. W. E. FORSTER
said, he was glad the question had been asked by the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst), and he thought that the reply that had been given by the President of the Board of Trade was quite satisfactory. Sir Charles Warren went out mainly in consequence of what had happened in Goshen; but there were other parts of Bechuanaland that were in great disorder, and in which serious outrages were being committed. There 81 was a possibility that the whole of the district, under proper security for the protection' of the Native Chiefs, might be added to and taken under the guidance of the Cape Colony. They had no reason to suppose that the Chiefs themselves objected to that course; but before that time had arrived the Imperial Government were bound to take care that order was preserved in the district, and that incursions were not made over the Border. All he wanted to say was, even if the Cape Government did succeed in their peaceful efforts with regard to Goshen and the attack upon Montsioa, yet the obligations upon the Home Government to secure order in Bechuanaland did not thereby cease. By the terms of the Convention of last year it was stated that Her Majesty's Government would, if necessary, appoint Commissioners to maintain order; and he had not the slightest doubt that if the Government were merely satisfied with the arrangement that the freebooters, through the persuasion of the Cape Government or the fear of Sir Charles Warren's action, should go over the Border—if they were contented, in short, to leave the territory to take care of itself, without any police force to keep order, they would have precisely the same things occurring again as they had now. He trusted that Her Majesty's Government would see that Sir Charles Warren or someone else would proceed up to this district under any circumstances in order to secure order and freedom from attack.

§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH
said, he joined in the hope that Her Majesty's Government and Sir Charles Warren would have due regard to the fact that there had been quite as serious evils in Stellaland as in the territory of Montsioa; and, unfortunately, the position of the freebooters had become more secured. The instructions of Sir Charles Warren, coupled with the statements of the President of the Board of Trade, were, he thought, quite satisfactory; but he should have been glad if Sir Charles Warren's special attention had been called to the crimes committed in Goshen, and to the necessity of exacting the due punishment of the persons who had committed them. It might be that the criminals had taken refuge in the Transvaal; and if so Sir Hercules Robinson could enter into direct communication with the Transvaal Govern- 82 ment. He hoped Sir Charles Warren would be instructed to adopt means for the purpose of bringing the criminals to justice.

§ MR. EVELYN ASHLEY
said, that, as he had already stated, there were great legal difficulties, and the Colonial Office were consulting the Law Officers as to the course they should pursue. It was rather difficult to enter into the matter piecemeal. There was no Extradition Treaty with the Transvaal; but there were means by which the Government would do their best to bring the criminals to justice. At present the better plan was to defer the matter for a short time, as the subject was still under the consideration of the Colonial Office in connection with the Law Officers of the Crown.