HC Deb 22 May 1884 vol 288 cc984-6
MR. GRAY

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he has yet received the reply of Mr. Clifford Lloyd to the question whether there is any truth in the allegation that he had in any cases substituted for the whip in ordinary use for purposes of punishment a cat-'o-nine-tails with the thongs loaded with metal?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

Yes; there is no foundation for the re- port, and the use of the whip has been restricted to cases of violence and mutinous crime within the prisons, and the number of strokes has been reduced from a maximum of 300 to 24.

MR. GRAY

inquired whether the attention of the noble Lord had been called to a letter published in Truth, over the name of the junior Member for county Wicklow (Mr. M'Coan), in which he stated that at a meeting recently held he had defended the use of the courbash, and then added— I did, indeed, contrast the courbash favourably with the now lead-tipped cat-o'-nine tails —administered not to the soles but to the hare backs—which Mr. Clifford Lloyd has substituted for it in the Cairo prisons. Would the noble Lord inquire from the junior Member for county Wicklow on what grounds he made that statement?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I sent out a copy of the hon. Member's Question the other day, and the answer I have given is founded upon the inquiry. I have no doubt, therefore, that it is quite accurate.

MR. GRAY

It is not a question of accuracy. The question is, whether the noble Lord will inquire from the junior Member for county Wicklow on what grounds he made the statement I have read?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I have no objection to make that inquiry.

MR. LABOUCHERE

asked whether they were to understand that before Mr. Clifford Lloyd went to Egypt the whip was used in the prisons; or whether it was not the fact that the courbash was used, and that Mr. Clifford Lloyd substituted for it the whip?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

No. What I understand, on the contrary, is that the use of the whip has been limited, and also that the number of strokes has been limited, and that this has been done during the time that Mr. Clifford Lloyd has held the office of the Ministry of the Interior, and therefore all the credit of it is due to him.

MR. O'BRIEN

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary, whether there is any intention of re-employing Mr. Clifford Lloyd as a police magistrate in Ireland?

MR. TREVELYAN

Mr. Clifford Lloyd is at present on lengthened leave of absence without pay, and I can make no statement at present with regard to his re-employment.

MR. O'DONNELL

Is Mr. Clifford Lloyd on lengthened leave of absence from Ireland, and also on leave of absence from Egypt? Can the right hon. Gentleman state what is the intention of the Egyptian Government regarding him?

MR. TREVELYAN

I know nothing, Sir, of the intentions of any Government but the Irish Government.

Afterwards—

MR. GRAY

said, he was unable to catch the full significance of the reply of the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to his Question as to the alleged use of the cat-o'-nine-tails on prisoners in Egypt. When the noble Lord said that the imputation conveyed in the Question was unfounded, did he refer to the use of the cat-o'-nine-tails, or to the portion of the Question which alleged that the cat-o'-nine-tails were loaded with lead? He wished to know whether, since Mr. Clifford Lloyd went to Egypt, the cat-o'-nine-tails had been introduced, whether loaded with lead or not?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

replied that what he understood was that the cat-o'-nine-tails had not been introduced; but as his answer did not make that clear, he would answer a further Question on the subject.

MR. GRAY

said, he would put a further Question.