HC Deb 01 May 1884 vol 287 cc1057-60
MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he is now able to state to the House when the Government intend to send an expedition for the relief of General Gordon?

MR. GLADSTONE

I have nothing further to say.

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

With reference to the despatches just placed in our hands about General Gordon, I wish to ask, if the Government are in possession of the text of a telegram from General Gordon to Sir Evelyn Baring, which does not appear in the Papers on the Table?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give Notice of that Question, as it relates to Papers only presented this afternoon.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

Will the Prime Minister allow me to ask a Question which very seriously affects the accuracy of information given to this House some days ago by him? I asked the Prime Minister about the condition of General Gordon on the 24th of April, as to whether the fall of Berber would not increase the peril of General Gordon; and the Prime Minister informed the House that, according to all the information in his possession, there would be no essential change in the position of Khartoum. I want to ask the right hon. in consequence of the change at Berber. Gentleman, whether his attention has been drawn to a despatch of Sir Evelyn Baring, dated the 20th of April, and received on the 20th of April, in which the following passage occurs:— Unless some prospect of help can be held out to Hassan Khalifa, there is some risk that he will be thrown into the arms of the rebels. This would seriously affect Gordon's position,"—[Egypt, No. 13 (1884), p. 13.] I wish to ask the Prime Minister, how he could possibly have given the answer he did with that information in his possession?

MR. GLADSTONE

The information communicated by Sir Evelyn Baring is completely in my recollection, and was in my recollection, I believe, at the time I spoke in this House, and was to be taken and considered by the Government in connection with all the other information the Government then possessed. That being so, my opinion, and, I believe, the opinion of my Colleagues, was, as I stated, that the fall of Berber—I do not know that I used the word "fall"—whatever might take place in Berber would make no essential change in the position of Khartoum. I do not doubt at all that the fall of Berber, affecting one of the routes of Khartoum, would affect Khartoum unfavourably rather than otherwise; but our opinion was, and is, that it would make nothing approaching to an essential change in the position of security of General Gordon.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

So that the House is to understand that the deliberately expressed opinion of Her Majesty's Envoy is absolutely and utterly worthless?

MR. GLADSTONE

dissented.

SIR. R ASSHETON CROSS

It makes no difference how long the Egyptian Papers have been in our hands; they have been in the hands of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Edmond Fitz-maurice) for some time. What I want to know is, whether we have got all the despatches from General Gordon to Sir Evelyn Baring? If the noble Lord cannot answer, I will give Notice for tomorrow.

MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

I would ask, whether the information which induces the Government to think that Khartoum is not in greater peril in consequence of the fall of Berber is to be be found in the despatch of the Governor of Berber, dated April 23, in which he says—"If Berber falls, there will no longer be any hope of the Soudan?"

[No reply.]

MR. CHAPLIN

I wish to ask, whether the Government still adhere to the opinion which they expressed on April 21 last, that the position of General Gordon at Khartoum was one of complete security?

MR. GLADSTONE

I adhere to the opinion I have given in this House more than once—that there is no military danger at the present moment besetting Khartoum, subject to the reservation, the only reservation, the single reservation, that our intelligence from Khartoum only comes down to certain dates.

MR. WILLIS

I wish to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether the time has come when the Government may properly take steps for the purpose of putting an end to the mission of General Gordon?

MR. GLADSTONE

In reply to the Question of my hon. and learned Friend, what I have to say is, that I am not, at present, in a condition to give any full answer to-day, for a simple reason which I will explain. My hon. and learned Friend is aware that General Gordon was sent to the Soudan—went to the Soudan upon a mission which involved the use only of pacific means, and that the first accounts which came from General Gordon were of a very encouraging character. Unquestionably, I admit that subsequent accounts have tended to throw doubt upon the prospect of accomplishing the objects of his mission by pacific means. But on that subject we some time ago addressed communi- cations to General Gordon which we think will materially enlarge our information with respect to his views of any prospect he may entertain of accomplishing that pacific mission. Until we receive the replies to these communications I shall not be in a position to answer the Question.

LORD EUSTACE CECIL

Are these communications in the Papers?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

If the noble Lord will only examine the Papers, they will answer a great many Questions which have been asked.