COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 06 March 1884 vol 285 cc810-5

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Gibson.)

MR. HEALY

wished to ask Mr. Speaker whether it was not the fact that on a Bill of this kind he did not leave the Chair without Question?

MR. GIBSON

said, he had a few words to say in explanation of the Bill, but he should be quite happy for Mr. Speaker to leave the Chair at once, if hon. Gentlemen desired it.

MR. SPEAKER

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is perfectly in Order.

MR. GIBSON

repeated his willingness to allow Mr. Speaker to leave the Chair without making any observations, and that it was only as a matter of courtesy that he proposed, in a couple of sentences, to state the object of the measure. The Bill, as anyone could see, was intended to mitigate the position of children and young persons who were brought before the Summary Tribunals in Ireland—to enable those Tribunals to mitigate the position of children and young persons. It would provide that under no Act should it be possible, on summary conviction, for any child to be sentenced to a larger term of imprisonment than one month, or to be ever fined a larger amount than 40s. The measure would also give ample jurisdiction to magistrates, in proper eases, to inflict no punishment whatever on a child, but to allow it to go away with its parents. He had omitted a clause in the original drafting, one which was not absolutely necessary so far as the aim and intention of the Bill were concerned. It was one, however, which it had been pointed out it would be well to put in, as it gave the right of appeal to young children even where mitigated sentences were inflicted.

MR. HEALY

said, there was one point the right hon. and learned Gentleman must give attention to. There must be a clause in the Bill, a distinct provision, to the effect that the parent of a child should be summoned to attend the Court. It was unfortunate that there was no provision in the Bill setting forth that no child should be condemned to sleep on a plank bed. He remembered, when he was in prison, an unfortunate child crying the whole night; he did not know what for, but he heard its wail along the corridor. If any hon. Member had seen a plank bed, he would be convinced that it was a most cruel thing to condemn a miserable little arab off the streets to sleep on it. He would suggest, in the first place, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should insert a provision in the Bill, to the effect that parents and guardians should be summoned to the Court; and then, again, in Clause 18, that no child should be compelled to sleep on a plank bed. Did he understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman to object to these proposals?

MR. GIBSON

could not say whether he would be able to consent before the Government had had time to consider the matter.

MR. HEALY

said, he should like to know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman intended to proceed with the Committee stage that night, because, if he did, he (Mr. Healy) should have to move Amendments to prevent children under 12 years of age being sentenced to the plank bed? It was an abominable thing to sentence little children to such a hardship. Hon. Gentlemen would not put their dogs or horses to sleep under such conditions as persons with human bodies, and souls made in the image of God, were condemned to. The plank bed system was an infamous one, which ought not to be tolerated; therefore, he trusted he should have the sympathy of the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the proposals he intended making. As to the summoning of parents and guardians to the Court, the right hon. and learned Gentleman might say it would be an understood thing that they should be present. But let it be laid down in the law that they should attend, and let their attendance be vital.

MR. O'BRIEN

said, he hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman would also reconsider the propriety of giving magistrates the power to order children to be flogged, even by the birch rod, by policemen.

MR. GIBSON

said, the sections of the Bill were already the law of England, and had been found to work most beneficially. It was generally known that he was proposing to incorporate in the law of Ireland provisions to be found in the law of England; therefore he did not like to introduce in his Bill any changes which were not in the law of England. In substance, he agreed with what had fallen from the hon. Member for Mouaghan (Mr. Healy); and if any controversy was likely to arise he should be willing to report Progress directly after getting into Committee, to let the proposals which had been made stand over for consideration.

Motion agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Summary trial of children for indictable offences unless objected to by parent or guardian).

MR. HEALY

said, be wished to propose to insert, in line 14, after the word "informed," the words "after being summoned to attend." He thought it only reasonable to provide that a summons should be issued to enable people to attend, because the Committee must not forget that they were dealing with the children of the poor.

MR. GIBSON

referred the hon. Member to Sub-section 3.

MR. HEALY

said, he was aware of that provision.

MR. GIBSON

said, he was on the Select Committee upon this Bill, and every syllable of it was threshed out with the most anxious care on the part of many hon. Members to watch the interests of the children, and with the greatest jealousy. The hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Hopwood), and several other hon. Members who took the keenest and most benevolent interest in the matter, were on the Committee, and Sub-section 3 was put in to meet this very point. He was quite aware that this clause did not state specifically that in every case the parents or guardians should be present; but it was drafted in the interest of children, and as many of these children were waifs and strays, if it was provided specifically that parents or a guardian should attend, there would be many cases of great hardship. Perhaps the hon. Member would not press his objection here, but make his observations on Sub-section 3. He thought the hon. Member would find that that sub-section had been framed with an anxious desire to do what was right in the matter. The hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Thompson) had spoken early with reference to an Amendment he had on the Paper; and, after carefully considering that Amendment, he had arranged with the hon. Member that the hon. Member would put that Amendment on the Paper, so that it might be considered on the Report stage. It required a great deal of care; but he hoped this section would be allowed to pass, as it would, he believed, carry out the very reasonable object of the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy).

MR. HEALY

said, he had read Subsection 3, and it scarcely met his point. The hon. Member for Durham—a Gentleman for whom Members on this side had very great respect—had spoken to him and his hon. Friends with regard to the sub-section; but it did not meet what they wished. It was no answer to say that this Bill applied to England; they had not to do with paupers in England, but in their own country. [Mr. GIBSON said, it worked well in England.] That did not show that it worked well in Ireland. The magistates in England belonged to the people; but in Ireland they did not. Appointing a magistrate in Ireland was like putting a beggar on horseback. There were no people who were greater lovers of justice than the people of Ireland; but he would not trust these magistrates a single inch under this Bill. There might be cases in which the children of an evicted tenant were brought before an evicting landlord. While the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) was on the Bench the people had the greatest confidence in him, because they knew him to be every inch a gentleman, and to have the interests of Ireland at heart—he wished some Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench had the same interest in Ireland—but, at the same time, the right hon. and learned Member was full of a lawyer's instincts, and suspected any changes in a Bill which he had drafted. [Mr. GIBSON said, he had not drafted the Bill.] Well, the right hon. and learned Gentleman had copied it. The argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not meet his point. What guarantee was there in this Bill? There ought to be a statement in the Bill that the parents or guardian should be summoned. He did not think that was too much to ask. When they were dealing with the children of unfortunate parents—with children who were waifs and strays—they ought to be careful to provide that the parents or guardian should be summoned. As a general rule, the parents would be glad to have the children taken off their hands, and, therefore, he should move his Amendment.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, line 14, after the word "informed," to insert the words "after being summoned to attend."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GIBSON

said, it was next to impossible for a private Member to pass a Bill. This was a Bill which everyone desired to pass in the interest of poor children, and everyone would desire that it should not be wrecked. He should be anxious to make every concession he could; but he could see that this Amendment might possibly lead to tremendous injustice to children.

MR. HEALY

said, he did not wish to go on with the Amendment after what the right hon. and learned Gentleman had said, and he would ask leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. O'BRIEN

said, he wished to move the omission of Sub-section (d).

MR. HEALY

said, that before this was put, as he had withdrawn his Amendment, he hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman would now make some concession. He had said that he should move words providing that no child should be compelled to sleep on plank beds; and he trusted the right hon and learned Gentleman would make some reasonable concession.

MR. GIBSON

said, that was a matter which no private Member had a right to agree to.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 22, to insert the words "that no child shall be compelled to sleep on a plank bed."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. COURTNEY

said, this was a matter of very great nicety, and if Amendments were to be brought forward it was necessary they should be put on the Paper. He should, therefore, move that Progress be reported, in order that these Amendments might be placed on the Paper and considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Courtney.)

MR. R. H. PAGET

said, he wished to suggest that as the Committee had advanced considerably with this Bill, the hon. Member should postpone this point to a later stage, so that they might get a little further with the Bill.

MR. GIBSON

said, he was willing to meet the hon. Member (Mr. Healy) as far as he could; but it would be impossible for him, as a private Member, to agree to a provision which might interfere with prison arrangements. He naturally had a great interest in seeing a Bill of this kind pass; and he would put it to the hon. Member whether he would not allow this Amendment to be withdrawn now and postponed to the Report stage?

Motion agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.