HC Deb 05 March 1884 vol 285 cc549-51
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

Sir, I wish to be allowed to put a Question to you, of which I gave you Notice yesterday, in regard to the Notice of Motion which my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Lancashire (Colonel Stanley) gave yesterday. I wish to know whether it will be competent for him to move that Motion as an Amendment on going into Committee of Supply on the Supplementary Estimates to-morrow?

MR. SPEAKER

In reply to the right hon. Gentleman, I have to state that the Standing Order of the 27th of November, 1882, is imperative on this subject. My Predecessor in this Chair held that the New Rule provided that the Speaker should leave the Chair on Mondays and Thursdays without Question put, except on first going into Committee of Supply on the Army, Navy, or Civil Service Estimates; and he added that, if the Supplementary Estimates were proposed on Monday or Thursday as the first Order of the Day, it would be his duty, as soon as the Order for going into Committee of Supply was read, to leave the Chair. It will be my duty, therefore, if the Supplementary Estimates are proposed as the first Order of the Day to-morrow, to leave the Chair without Question put. It will not be competent, therefore, for the right hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Stanley) to move his Amendment.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

Under those circumstances, I will ask the Prime Minister if he can afford any facilities for bringing forward the Motion of my right hon. and gallant Friend—whether he cannot make some arrangement by which this Rule, which applies only to the case when Supply stands as the first Order of the Day on Monday and Thursday, will not shut out the Amendment?

MR. GLADSTONE

With respect to making any arrangement against the operation of the Rule, and by which the Rule may be avoided, I do not at all know to what arrangement the right hon. Gentleman opposite alludes, and I cannot give any answer to it until I know to what arrangement he alludes. I understand him to ask me whether we could give facilities for bringing the Motion on. I understand that in the usual sense, whether I could arrange that Supply should not be taken to-morrow, and that that day should be left vacant for the raising of any substantive Motion in the shape of a Vote of Censure upon the Egyptian policy of the Government. To that I must answer in the negative; it would be impossible for me to do that. But, in giving that answer, I may state that the arrangement we have made was made for the convenience of Public Business, and in the full belief that we were meeting the wishes of the House; and I thought that the right hon. Gentleman himself distinctly intimated to us that it was his desire to have the Vote for the Egyptian Expenditure—the Supplementary Military Estimate—taken as soon as possible; and, likewise, that when that Vote was proposed, a fresh discussion should be raised on the Egyptian policy of the Government. For that we thought we had provided. Considering that three weeks of the Session were passed before the Address was reported; considering that it is only a fortnight since a Vote of Censure on the Government for its Egyptian policy was disposed of after five nights' debate; considering that we have had seven other debates on our Egyptian policy of shorter duration; and considering that it is very necessary to get on with the Supplementary Estimates, and having regard to the principal Business of the Session, I must own that I am not prepared to set aside Supply to-morrow, or to consent to be a party to such an arrangement, in order to make room for such a Motion.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

In reference to part of the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, what I meant was this—that the Rule which excludes my right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Stanley) from making a Motion only applies in cases where Supply is taken as the first Business. If it is taken as the second Business instead of the first, that difficulty would not arise; and my suggestion was that some other Order of the Day—such, for instance, as the Bill relating to the retirement of the late Speaker—might be put first. In that case the difficulty would not arise, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider that point.

MR. LABOUCHERE

I would also ask the Prime Minister whether he has observed that, even if he made that arrangement, no vote could be taken on the proposal of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Stanley), because I have an Amendment which would come before it, and I mean to take a Division upon that Amendment?

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

The right hon. Gentleman does not answer my Question as to whether any arrangement could be made.

MR. GLADSTONE

No, Sir; it was a request to me to consider a certain subject. I did not think an off-hand answer was necessary. Indeed, we cannot be expected to make an off-hand answer, and it will be necessary to have regard also to the point which has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere).

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

Then I will repeat the Question before the close of the Business to-day.