§ LORD GEORGE HAMILTONasked the First Lord of the Treasury. If the House are to understand that the Great Powers, in consenting to enter into the Conference, have assented to the principle that the International decisions arrived at in the Conference are to be inoperative unless sanctioned by the Parliament of Great Britain?
MR. GLADSTONEThe Powers have not given, nor have they been asked to give, any assent to any proposition, except those which have been mentioned to the House by Her Majesty's Government, and which have for the most part been printed in the Papers in possession of the House. I may, however, say that we are acquainted 1243 with the Constitutional practice of this country; and we know that for four weeks or more it has been matter of public notoriety that the proceedings of the Government in relation to Egypt would be subject to the decision of Parliament.
§ LORD GEORGE HAMILTONThere is nothing in the Papers laid before Parliament to show that the Great Powers have in any way assented to this principle. If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will just remind him of a Question which was put yesterday, and which was identical with mine, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster), who said—
I suppose we should be perfectly in the right in assuming that the Government have been perfectly candid with the Great Powers, and have informed them that the final assent of England must depend on the action of Parliament; and also in assuming that the course taken by the Government to-day will preclude them from afterwards telling the House that they must assent to the proposals that have been assented to by the Great Powers.Well, the Prime Minister assented to that. Now, I want to know if the Prime Minister has any kind or sort of documentary evidence whatever that he can lay on the Table in support of that?
MR. GLADSTONEI thought I had conveyed that in my answer. The noble Lord is perfectly right in saying that the answers of the Great Powers do not contain anything bearing on that question, and no formal communications have taken place on the subject; but we are as certain as we are that we are going to hold a Conference that the Powers are aware of the fact, which has been notorious for four weeks past —namely, that the proceedings are contingent upon the consent of Parliament being obtained.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLIn order to be sure whether we shall not fall into error on this point, I wish to know whether the Prime Minister will not pledge the Government to communicate to the House the result of the exchange of views between England and France after consultation with the other Powers. If I recollect aright, the Prime Minister used, more than once, the words—"We will consult the Powers, and then communicate with the House;" and I, therefore, wish to know, 1244 if the Powers have been consulted, how it arises that they have not expressed any opinion?
MR. GLADSTONEThat is perfectly true and accurate, and the noble Lord is quite right in his citation. We have consulted the Powers; but that consultation has been a very recent one. As the noble Lord will see from the dates, the communications with France have only been brought to a conclusion within a very recent period. The full answers of the Powers have not yet been received.
SIR E. ASSHETON CROSSIn reference to the statement of the right lion. Gentleman—
That he will undertake to engage that, in the event of a common understanding with France, and after consultation with the Powers, any plan resulting therefrom, those results and the whole conclusion arrived at shall be presented to Parliament before the Conference meets "—I wish to ask, Whether there is any foundation in fact for the statement which has appeared in the Press, that it is the intention of the Government in Conference to propose or to assent to any arrangement under which this Country may be committed to make any advance in money by way of gift, grant, loan, or guarantee on behalf of Egypt; and, if any such arrangement is to be made, to what extent this country is to be committed?
MR. GLADSTONEIn reference to the preamble of the right hon. Gentleman's Question, that is exactly the pledge which we have fulfilled, and the entire result of our communication appears in the Papers which have been laid before Parliament. The whole conclusion at which, in common with France, we have arrived is before the House in the Papers which have been published.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLAfter consultation with the Powers?
MR. GLADSTONEThe noble Lord seems to reproach me with having, as he implies, made our communications to Parliament too soon. We have stated that we have consulted with the Powers; but it does not follow that we should necessarily have received all the answers from them.
§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSThe right hon. Gentleman has not answered my Question with regard to whether any arrangement has resulted from the communications, and will be submitted?
MR. GLADSTONEYes, Sir; the plan resulting from these communications is exactly what we have made known in the Papers presented to Parliament. With regard to the Question of which the right hon. Gentleman has given Notice, I am not sorry he has given me the opportunity of repeating what I stated yesterday. We have had to consider, in the first place, the precedents applicable to it; in the second place, the deference due to the Powers; in the third place, the relations of the Legislative and Executive Governments of this country; in the fourth place, the practical conduct of the business before the Conference; and, in the fifth place, the welfare of Egypt. Each of these considerations involves objections, some of them absolutely conclusive, to our mating known to Parliament, at this moment, the financial proposals which we intend to lay before the Conference. The Question of the right hon. Gentleman refers to something which, if it were true, would, of course, necessarily constitute a part of those financial proposals?
§ MR. CHAPLINWhat I think the House wants to know of the right hon. Gentleman is, whether it is, or is not, the case that the Government undertook, after the agreement between France and England had concluded, and the Powers had been consulted, that the result of that consultation should be submitted to Parliament before the Conference met?
MR. GLADSTONEThe result of the consultation, so far as the answers of the Powers are concerned, cannot be made known, because the answers have not yet all been received. Only one Power —or, I should say, in the main, the answers have not been received; and, indeed, there has not been time. We were anxious to fulfil our engagements with Parliament at the very earliest moment; and when we had placed ourselves in full communication with the Powers on these matters, we at once proceeded to make the communication known to Parliament.
§ MR. CHAPLINWill the Conference be postponed until the answers to the communications have been received, in accordance with the reply of the Prime Minister?
MR. GLADSTONENo, Sir; certainly not. The meeting of the Powers has no relation to the matter of the 1246 agreement between this country and Prance, but to the financial necessities of Egypt, which require immediate attention.
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHI would now ask, is this communication connected with a Question which I had intended to put on Thursday in reference to the financial proposals? It is obvious that there are financial proposals of two kinds—those with which this House has nothing whatever to do, and those requiring the assent of the House; and I wish to ask whether any of these proposals could be put into execution without the assent of the House?
MR. GLADSTONEI have already declined, in terms most explicit, founded on a conviction based on an important principle, to give any information as to the nature of our financial proposals. At the same time, I have said that the whole matter will be submitted to the judgment of Parliament, and will be dependent upon that judgment.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLI wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he did not in 1855 make a strong attack on Lord Palmerston for guaranteeing the Turkish Loan without the consent of Parliament?
MR. GLADSTONEThe noble Lord gives me credit for a better memory than I possess; and he asks me whether in the year 1855–29 years ago—I objected to a measure for guaranteeing the Turkish Loan? I am not able to follow the terms of my speech on that occasion. I am very glad, however, to see that the noble Lord thinks my speeches worthy of the honour of reading them. If he likes to give Notice of the Question I shall be happy to answer it.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLI shall put the Question on Thursday, and I may say that I read the speech with great pleasure.
§ VISCOUNT GALWAYasked the Prime Minister whether he could not so far state to Parliament the nature of the financial proposals to be submitted to Parliament as to say whether any advance of money would be proposed or not?
MR. GLADSTONEThe Question is simply varied in its terms from others which have been put and answered. If a question of so great importance were brought before the Conference, it would form part of the financial proposals. I 1247 have already stated that we cannot give any information. It would be contrary to our public duty; while we reiterate the full assurance that the House is not bound to be committed in any way by what we do.
§ LORD GEORGE HAMILTONThe right hon. Gentleman has guaranteed this House perfect freedom of action in dealing with certain proposals. Now, I wish to ask how he can guarantee this House freedom of action if these proposals be of a financial character, and he has not yet taken the opinion of the Powers as to their consent to an international decision? To put the Question in another way, how can he guarantee that when that proposal has come before this House it will come before it, not as the proposal of the Government, but as the proposal of the Powers of Europe?
MR. GLADSTONEThere are two Questions involved. One is, whether, in point of fact, we have undertaken to guarantee the freedom of Parliament; the other is, in what way that guarantee could take effect? We have undertaken to guarantee the freedom of Parliament; but I cannot as yet on principle explain the mode, because it would be treading upon ground on which, as I have said, we cannot on principle enter. I have promised, not only that freedom of action shall be maintained, but that we shall do everything in our power to expedite the time when we can make the fullest explanation and communication.
§ MR. GIBSONWould the Prime Minister say if the communications made to the French Government on the financial proposals intended to be made by the Government to the Conference will be laid before the House?
MR. GLADSTONEI rather think that the Question has already been put and answered; but if the right hon. and learned Gentleman gives Notice of the Question, I will take care that he receives an answer.
§ MR. HENEAGEI should like to ask the Prime Minister, whether each of the Powers enter into the Conference with the same reservation as England—namely, that the proceedings are not to be final until they have been referred to their own existing Parliaments?
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLAs a Question supplementary to that of the hon. Member, I should wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman what Parliament exists in Russia to which the proceeding of the Executive of that country could be ratified?
MR. GLADSTONEI am not aware that any reservation of the character indicated by the hon. Member's Question has been made.