HC Deb 24 June 1884 vol 289 cc1248-59

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to the Bill [23rd June], on Further Proceeding on Consideration, as amended.

And which Amendment was, In page 1, line 19, to leave out the word "himself," in order to insert the words "by himself, or by himself and his family wholly." —(Mr. Warton.)

Question again proposed, "That the word 'himself' stand part of the Bill."

Debate resumed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 23, to leave out the word "an," in order to insert the word "the."—(Mr. Warton.)

Question, "That the word 'an' stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 24, to leave out the words "as a ten ant."— (Mr. Warton.)

Question, "That the words ' as a tenant' stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause 4 (Restriction on fagot votes).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENBY JAMES)

moved, in page 1, line 27, to leave out "after the passing of this Act." The Amendment was consequential on the new clause moved by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) fixing the commencement of the Act as January 1, 1885.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. HEALY

moved an Amendment for the purpose of enabling Roman Catholics to exercise the voting powers which they had hitherto possessed in respect of residing in, or carrying on any trade or business in, premises that came up to the requisite qualification.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 14, after the word "and," to insert the words "reside or."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'reside or' be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)

pointed out that this clause dealt only with ownership, and had nothing whatever to do with occupation. The Amendment was, therefore, quite unnecessary. Under the Occupation Clause Roman Catholics would retain all their former privileges. If mere residence were permitted as a qualification for voting, all the members of a family would be enfranchised, which obviously could not be allowed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 21 to leave out the words "otherwise legally," in order to insert the words "legally or otherwise."—(Mr. Warton.)

Question, "That the words 'otherwise legally' stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause 5 (Assimilation of occupation qualification).

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 31, after the word "respectively," to insert the words "including the conditions as regards joint and successive occupancy."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 6 (Voter not to vote in respect of occupation of property in borough).

Amendment proposed, In page 2, line 39, after the word "borough," to insert the words "Provided, That nothing herein contained shall apply to any land or tenement situate partly in a borough, and the occupation of which does not qualify to vote at an election for such borough."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENEY JAMES)

said, in the case suggested by the hon. Gentleman the owner would probably be the dweller in either the county or borough. There would be great practical difficulty in accepting these words.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 7 (Definition of household and lodger qualification and other franchises, and application of enactments relating thereto).

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER)

moved, in page 3, line 19, after "twenty-two, "insert" and twenty-three."

Amendment agreed to.

MR. HEALY

moved, in page 3, line 19, after "twenty-two," insert "and twenty-three."

Amendment agreed to.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER)

moved, in page 3, line 24, after "1868," to insert— And in the said section twenty-two of 'The Parliamentary and Municipal Registration Act, 1878,' the reference to section thirteen of 'The Parliamentary Registration Act, 1843,' shall be construed to refer to the enactments of the Registration Acts in Ireland relating to the making out, signing, publishing, and otherwise dealing with the lists of voters, and the reference to the Parliamentary Registration Acts, shall he construed to refer to the Registration Acts in Ireland, and the following dates shall be substituted in Ireland for the dates in that section mentioned, that is to say, the twentieth day of July for the last day of July, and the fourteenth day of July for the twenty-fifth day of July, and the word 'overseers' shall be construed to refer in a county to the clerk of the peace, and in a borough to the town clerk.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. HEALY

moved, in page 3, line 24, after "1868," to insert— And the reference in the said section twenty-two to section thirteen of 'The Parliamentary Registration Act, 1843,' shall be deemed to be made, as regards boroughs to section thirty-three, and as regards counties to section twenty-one of the Act of the Session of the thirteenth and fourteenth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter sixty-nine; and the reference in the said section twenty-two to the Parliamentary Registration Acts, shall be deemed to be made to the Registration Acts as defined by this Act; and in the construction of the said section, the word 'overseers' shall be construed to mean, in a borough the town clerk for such borough, and in a county the clerk of the peace for such county; and the following dates shall be substituted for the dates therein mentioned, that is to say, the fourteenth day of July, for the twenty-fifth day of July, and the twentieth day of July, for the last day of July.

MR. HEALY

moved, in page 4, line 17, after "1868," to insert— In the case of any franchise arising out of the occupation of any dwelling-house, lands, or tenements, or of any lodgings, where, in the Representation of the People Acts, as defined by this Act, the qualifying period of occupation is fixed as twelve months prior to any date, the occupation of such premises for six months prior to such date shall, after the passing of this Act, be held to qualify for such franchise. Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENEEAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)

said, that the Government could not accept the Amendment; but they were in favour of its principle, and hoped to deal with the question at a future day.

MR. WARTON

said, he thought the House ought to be on its guard against allowing the whole effect of the Bill to be altered in a democratic direction by proposals to lessen the period of residence required to qualify a voter. The sympathies of the Prime Minister were with the worst class of householders; and he must protest against any pledge being given that the Government contemplated a reduction of the term of residence, which would practically enfranchise vagrants.

MR. LEWIS

said, that under that Amendment the occupier of a room let for Is. a-week in a large town would in six months be entitled to the franchise.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. HEALY

moved, in page 4, line 17, after "1868," to insert the following:— In the case of any franchise arising out of the occupation of any dwelling-house, lands, or tenements, where it shall appear that any person claiming to occupy, or to have occupied, any such premises as tenant, was evicted from such premises at any time during the qualifying period of occupation, but was subsequently reinstated in the possession of same, such person shall, so far as regards qualification for any such franchise as aforesaid, be deemed, notwithstanding such eviction, to have been in occupation of said promises during the whole of the qualifying period. The hon. Gentleman said, that in many counties in Ireland hundreds of persons were deprived of the franchise by a subterfuge which this Amendment was intended to abolish. In the North, and especially in the county which he represented (Monaghan), it was a common thing to serve tenants with an ejectment for non-payment before the 20th of July, in order to break the qualifying occupation, and after the 20th of July was past they were put in again as caretakers. In the County Monaghan, at the last Sessions, no less than 80 persons were served under these circumstances; and he believed that no less than 300 or 400 persons had received notices recently with the same object. His contention was borne out by a statement made a few days ago by County Court Judge Barron with regard to certain cases upon the estate of an ex-Member for the county; and Mr. Barren was not a gentleman likely to express opinions of that kind without reason, for it would be remembered that on one occasion he boasted that if he had a match he would set fire to a Land League hut. Under these circumstances, he hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, In page 4, line 17, after "1868," to insert the words—" In the case of any franchise arising out of the occupation of any dwelling-house, lands, or tenements, where it shall appear that any person claiming to occupy, or to have occupied, any such premises as tenant, was evicted from such premises at any time during the qualifying period of occupation, but was subsequently reinstated in the possession of the same, such person shall, so far as regards qualification for any such franchise as aforesaid, be deemed, notwithstanding such eviction, to have been in occupation of said premises during the whole of the qualifying period."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENEY JAMES)

, said, that this case must be treated as a whole. If the Government were to make any exception in this particular case of evicted tenants, other matters of detail would be brought forward, and there would be great difficulty in dealing with them. He trusted, therefore, that the hon. Member would not press the Amendment.

MR. LEWIS

said, he thought that this Amendment was an absolute reduotio ad absurdunt of the principle involved in the Bill. He thought that the House was to be congratulated on the fact that the assurances of future consideration given in respect to it on the part of the Government were a little less strong than those which had been given with reference to some other proposals of a similar nature. At all events, they could only protest against the plan of giving away of little bits of the Constitution and the rights of property.

MR. HARRINGTON

said, he thought the speech of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Lewis) was a proof of the small hold which the Irish Tory Party felt that they had upon the constituencies they represented in Ireland. When they had recourse to artifices of this kind in order to retain their seats in that House, he did not see how they could stand up there and say that they represented the feelings of the majority of the people of the North of Ireland. If they represented the majority of the people of Ulster, why did they seek to curtail their franchise by miserable tricks of this kind? The Amendment was one which deserved the serious consideration of the Government. By the process described by his hon. Friend (Mr. Healy) the tenant's continuity in his holding was broken, and the franchise was taken away from him. He had to discharge all the obligations of a tenant in occupation—he had to pay his rent and his rates, which gave him the qualification for a vote. Yet, because he was put outside his door, and immediately readmitted, he was placed without the bounds of the Constitution. This was a grievous injustice, and it was not alone practised largely in the county of Monaghan, but in the counties of Tyrone, Donegal, and Antrim. He, thought, therefore, the Government was bound to accept the Amendment.

MR. P. MARTIN

stated he was in favour of the principle asserted by the Amendment. In Ireland the evicted tenant was entitled to redeem his holding at any time during six months from, the date of the enactment of the habere. That equity of redemption, as it was called, was a statutory right. When he thus re-entered, he was deemed to be restored to his previous tenancy, with all its rights, and subject to all liabilities. Why, then, should he be deprived of the franchise? The Amendment could do no injustice; but it more properly belonged to a Registration than to a Franchise Bill.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he thought that the Government should redress the grievance now, instead of merely holding out an expectation of its being remedied at some future time, which might never arrive.

MR. MACFARLANE

said, bethought the statement in which the Amendment was introduced disclosed a substantial grievance, and he thought it would be a discreditable thing if it were not remedied.

MR. HICKS

said, he thought the Amendment struck at the whole principle of occupancy in the Three Kingdoms. He urged the Government to avow pure Democracy at once, and abandon all disguise.

MR. WARTON

wanted to know when the Government would stop throwing sops to the Parnellite Members? He considered the proposal a most dishonest one.

VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE

pointed out that the tenant had an easy remedy against this injustice—namely, by paying his rent. He condoled with the Government on the opposition being raised against this Bill in its later stages, and thought that after the volte-face of the previous night on the Criminal Clause, they would be extra careful of the concessions they might make. He should leave the Government and their Irish Friends to fight the question out among themselves.

SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA

cordially supported the Amendment, but hoped the House would not be put to the trouble of a Division.

MR. HEALY

said, that, as the Tory Party evidently intended to make this Amendment an occasion for talking out the Bill, he should not press it.

MR. GIBSON

said, he was not aware that any Members of the persuasion referred to had taken any part in the discussion.

Question put, and negatived.

Clause 8 (Definition of "Representation of the People Acts" and "Registration Acts").

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)

moved, in page 5, line 8, at end, insert as a separate paragraph— In Scotland all enactments of the Registration Acts which relate to the registration of persons entitled to vote in burghs, including the provisions relating to dates, shall, with the necessary variations, and with, the necessary alterations of notices and other forms, extend and apply to counties as well as to burghs; and the enactments of the said Acts which relate to the registration of persons entitled to vote in counties shall, so far as inconsistent with the enactments so applied, be repealed: Provided, That in counties the valuation rolls, registers, and lists shall continue to be arranged in parishes as heretofore. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, in explaining the effect of the Amendment, said, it was known to hon. Members from Scotland that there were different rules applicable to the making up of the voters' lists in counties and burghs. He need not enumerate these in detail, and would only mention two. In the case of counties, it was not necessary in each year to publish a full list of the voters. It was only necessary, according to the existing law, to publish a list of those who had become disqualified, or who had died, during the year, and of those who had become qualified; whereas, in the case of burghs, a full list of voters in each year was published. Then there was another material difference in regard to dates. The date for completing the voters' lists in counties was the 25th of August, while in burghs it was the 15th of September. It was necessary to consider, when similar rules were to be applied to the two, what method should be followed—whether the old county method should be followed, or whether it might not be more convenient to extend to counties the rules at present applying to burghs. It was represented with great force that, in consequence of the largo change in the character of the rural constituencies, when all householders were enfranchised, there would be many more alterations if the old county method were adhered to, and there would consequently be a much longer list than was customary in former days. That being so, it had been thought better to have a full list in counties as in burghs; and as there would be more labour in making it up, it had also been thought better to give an additional three weeks in counties, as in the case of burghs. But while it was convenient that these changes should be made, it would not have been convenient to take away the rule that in counties the parish should be the unit, with reference to which the lists should be made out, and so in the Proviso that rule was adhered to. He believed the propositions in the Amendment would be generally acceptable.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9 (Definition and application of Rating Acts).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)

moved, in page 5, line 18, leave out from beginning of line to end of line 31, and insert— In every part of the United Kingdom it shall he the duty of the overseers annually, in the months of April and May, or one of them, to inquire or ascertain with respect to every hereditament which comprises any dwelling-house or dwelling-houses, within the meaning of the Representation of the People Acts, whether any man, other than the owner or other person rated or liable to be rated in respect of such hereditament, is entitled to he registered as a voter in respect of his being an inhabitant occupier of any such dwelling-house, and to enter in the rate-book the name of every man so entitled, and the situation or description of the dwelling-house in respect of which he is entitled, and for the purposes of such entry a separate column shall be added to the rate-book. For the purpose of the execution of such duty, the overseers may serve on the person who is the occupier or rated or liable to be rated in respect of such hereditament or on some agent of such person concerned in the management of such hereditament, the requisition specified in the Third Schedule to this Act requiring that the form in that notice be accu- rately filled up and returned to the overseers within twenty-one days after such service; and if any such person or agent on whom such requisition is served fails to comply therewith, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding forty shillings, and any overseer who fails to perform his duty under this section shall be deemed guilty of a breach of duty in the execution of the Registration Acts, and shall be liable to be fined accordingly a sum not exceeding forty shillings for each default. The notice under this section may be served in manner provided by the Representation of the People Acts with respect to the service on occupiers of notice of non-payment of rates, and, where a body of persons, corporate or unincorporate, is rated, shall be served on the secretary or agent of such body of persons; and where the hereditament by reason of belonging to the Crown or otherwise is not rated, shall be served on the chief local officer having the superintendence or control of such hereditament. In the application of this section to Scotland the expression rate-book means the valuation roll, and where a man entered on the valuation roll by virtue of this section inhabits a dwelling-house by virtue of any office, service, or employment there shall not be entered in the valuation roll any rent or value against the name of such man as applicable to such dwelling-house, nor shall any such man by reason of such entry become liable to be rated in respect of such dwelling-house. The proviso in section two of the Act for the valuation of lands and heritages in Scotland, passed in the Session of the seventeenth and eighteenth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter ninety-one, and section fifteen of 'The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1868,' shall be repealed: Provided, That in any county in Scotland the commissioners of supply, or the parochial board of any parish, or any other rating authority entitled to impose assessments according to the valuation roll, may, if they think fit, levy such assessments in respect of lands and heritages separately let for a shorter period than for one year or at a rent not amounting to four pounds per annum in the same manner and from the same persons as if the names of the tenants and occupiers of such lands and heritages were not inserted in the valuation roll.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11 (Construction of Act).

Amendment proposed, In page 7, line 21, after the word "heritages," to insert the words "the expressions 'joint tenants' and 'tenants in common' shall include 'pro indiviso proprietors.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, after the word "shall," to insert the words "in Scotland."— (Mr. Warton.)

Question, "That the words 'in Scotland,' be there inserted," put, and negatived.

Question, "That the words ' the expressions "joint tenants" and "tenants in common "shall include" pro indiviso proprietors" be there inserted," ' put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In page 7, line 28, after the word "same," to insert the words "Provided, That where in Ireland any land or tenement in the occupation of any person is not separately valued under the said Acts, the occupier may show what the clear yearly value of such land or tenement in fact is."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, In page 7, line 28, after the word "same," to insert the words "unless the occupier shall show that the clear yearly value is in fact greater than such net annual value."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.

Clause 13 (Commencement of Act).

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)

moved, in page 7, line 43, at end, add— Provided, That the register of voters in any county or borough in Scotland, made in the last mentioned year, shall not come into force until the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-six, and until that day the previous register of voters shall continue in force. He said, this Amendment was the proper corollary of the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler), which was accepted the other day. In England the new Register for each year did not come into operation until the 1st of January of the following year. In Scotland, however, the new Register for each year came into operation on the 1st of November; and if they did not make some provision like that now proposed, the anomaly would arise that if there was a General Election during the months of November and December, 1885, it would be on the new constituency in Scotland, while in England it would be on the old constituency. The object of his Amendment, therefore, was to provide that the new constituencies in both countries should begin to vote together.

SIR JOHN HAY

I hope this change will only apply to that particular year?

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)

Yes.

Amendment agreed to.

Bill to be read the third time upon Thursday; and to be printed. [Bill 260.]