HC Deb 13 June 1884 vol 289 cc245-6
MR. BOURKE (for Mr. GIBSON)

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, When was "the original scheme for the evacuation of the Soudan dropped;" and, whether there is any scheme now in existence for the rescue of the garrisons in the Soudan; or, whether those garrisons have been finally abandoned to their fate?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

The original plan, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, may be said to have been abandoned, perhaps when General Gordon asked for the appointment of Zebehr Pasha, certainly when he asked for the aid of Turkish troops against the Mahdi. With reference to the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's Question, I have nothing to add to what fell from my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War in the debate on the Vote of Censure; and if the right hon. Gentleman has any further Question to ask in regard to military preparations he will, no doubt, give Notice of it to the proper Department.

MR. ASHMEAD-BAETLETT

With regard to the reply of the noble Lord, in which he stated that the original scheme for the evacuation of the Soudan dropped when the appointment of Zebehr Pasha was made, or when it was asked for, and when Turkish troops were asked for, I would ask him whether he is aware that the Prime Minister, on the 3rd of April and subsequently, stated in the House that the plan of General Gordon had not failed. [Cries of "Order!"]

MR. GLADSTONE

I must ask you, Sir, whether the hon. Member is in Order in making recitals of that kind in the course of a Question? [Cries of "Order! "] I am speaking to Order.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is referring to a debate which took place in the present Session; and the Question, in the form in which he has put it, is out of Order.

MR. GIBSON

asked whether the first statement, that the original plan for the evacuation of the Soudan had been dropped, was to be found in the despatch of the 18th of May?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I feel sure that the House will see that in reply to a Question involving complicated issues as to dates I would be quite entitled to ask for Notice; but I have no wish to do so. [Mr. GIBSON: It is the Question on the Paper.] No; it is not. The Question on the Paper I have answered, and answered fully. But I have just said I am quite willing to reply at once. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman will refer to my speech in the debate on the Vote of Censure in reply to his own speech, he will find that I there quoted from the last Blue Book textually two telegrams from Lord Granville, dated the 16th and 23rd of March—I am, of course, quoting the date from memory only—in which the decision to abandon the original plan is fully set out and the reasons.