HC Deb 08 July 1884 vol 290 cc503-5
MR. W. J. CORBET

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If his attention has been called to a letter in The Times of the 7th instant from Sir Benson Maxwell, in which it is stated— The moment that Mr. Lloyd obtained the management of the gaols he reinstated the courbash contrary to the law, and contrary to my repeated protestations. …. it has been, and is maintained contrary to law by Englishmen, because they are protected from the Egyptian Courts by the capitulations; and, whether he can give any explanation of the course alleged to have been taken by Mr. Clifford Lloyd in Egypt?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

Sir, the use of the courbash was finally abolished throughout Egypt by a Ministerial Circular, dated the 16th of January, 1883, which is to be found in "Egypt," No. 13 (1883), page 11. It is an open question whether this abolition was intended to extend to prisons. Early this year Mr. Lloyd drew up prison rules which received the sanction of the Minister of the Interior on March 3. Under these rules certain offences, such as mutiny, insubordination, aggravated assault, and destruction of prison property, rendered the prisoners committing them liable to corporal punishment. In the opinion of Sir Benson Maxwell these rules never received proper legal sanction, and therefore lacked validity. Hence arose a conflict of authority between the Department of the Procureur General and the Prison Department. Instructions are being prepared for the British Acting Agent in Egypt to represent to the Egyptian Government the necessity of steps being taken to put the prison rules and the law of the land into harmony, and to see that these rules and their application should be consonant with justice and humanity, and that in the meanwhile no abuse takes place under the rules of the prisons.

MR. COLERIDGE KENNARD

asked whether Mr. Clifford Lloyd did not, by his Memorandum, reduce the number of lashes that could possibly be administered under proper supervision of the doctor and other authorities; and, further, whether he did not order that the application of the courbash should be, not to the soles of the feet, but to a less sensitive part of the body?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

said, that was not within the terms of the Question.

MR. W. J. CORBET

asked the noble Lord to answer the latter part of his Question, as to whether Mr. Clifford Lloyd re-established the use of the courbash?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

said, the instrument to be used under the rules established by Mr. Clifford Lloyd was the courbash.

MR. COLERIDGE KENNARD

But it was considerably reduced in its application.